Jay Roberts (Warren Wilson College) on Reimagining Engagement with Experiential Learning

On today’s episode of the Illumination by Modern Campus podcast, podcast host Shauna Cox was joined by Jay Roberts to discuss the role of experiential learning in creating relevance for students and the importance of collaborative environments that build belonging.

Transcript

Shauna Cox (00:02):

Jay, welcome to the Illumination podcast.

Jay Roberts (00:05):

Thanks for having me on. I'm excited for our conversation.

Shauna Cox (00:08):

Me too. And we are here to talk about inspiring belonging, creating lifelong engagement, all of those good, warm, fuzzy feelings I think that we should have in higher ed to make it much more that environment that makes people want to be there and keep coming back. So I want to kick off our conversation and first ask you what makes Immersive hands-on learning such a powerful way to foster belonging and that connection among students especially today?

Jay Roberts (00:37):

Yeah, great question and I love how you ended with, especially today, and we might get into that later in terms of how things like artificial intelligence are influencing how we think about pedagogy in higher ed. But we've known this for a long time, to be honest. I mean, there are all the way back to John Dewey, and if you want to, you could probably go all the way back to the Greeks to why learning by doing or variations of that can be very engaging for learners. And so I would say there are probably three to five kind of big ticket items that indicate why these kinds of experiences students report as being more meaningful for them, more impactful in how they think about both their major or whatever academic coursework they're working through, and then also later on in their life. And the number one, which won't surprise you is relevance.

(01:28):

So we always joke that students are listening to a radio station called W-I-I-F-M, which stands for What's in it for me, and they're listening to that radio station all the time. So one of the things we know about experiential learning and these immersive environments is it immediately brings that question of what's in it for me to the fore? And whether that's service learning, where they're out in a community and they are seeing the impact of the work that they're doing on a community partner or on children or on some kind of service that they're providing in the area that's immediately relevant to them. Or if it's something in the classroom where you're doing a simulation that gives them a chance to say, oh, now I understand how that particular content piece in biology applies in this particular space. Or it could be, I really need to understand how my major might connect to career aspirations that I have.

(02:31):

So there are all kinds of ways that experiential learning hits that relevance button and allows students to stay in that space of listening to that radio station IIFM. But they're given through the way we engage the content, they're given that answer about why it's relevant and what's in it for them. So another big one for me is experiential learning. And these kind of immersive environments enable what I would call multimodal learning. So it's not simply sitting in a fixed seat looking at a PowerPoint, which can be frustrating for any kind of learner, but especially today and when we have more active classrooms, when students have a bigger sense of ownership of what's happening when we're literally moving our bodies around sometimes or talking to our neighbor or when we're outside of the classroom and engaging in a laboratory setting or in an internship or in a service learning experience, these kinds of environments that are active and multimodal help students in what we call universal design for learning.

(03:44):

It allows a variety of minds. We don't have one kind of way that we all learn, but we all learn better when it's multimodal. And so I think that's a big part of why these environments tend to be more engaging. Then the last one I'll say is you mentioned the word belonging. Typically, these kinds of learning experiences are collaborative. They are not an individual only doing work by themselves. When we can create social and collaborative learning environments, students feel more of a sense of connection to the faculty member they see and experience more connections with their peers. And as a result that forms a social glue that can make a classroom feel more safe and can enable students to take more risks. So I think those are really three key areas that we've known for some time create more engaging and more powerful learning environments for students.

Shauna Cox (04:44):

Absolutely. That idea of all of those three key things I think can make, almost make or break a student's experience at an institution. And I love the idea of this radio station that students are listening in. It's probably one of my favorite things I've heard in a bit. So I am now going to keep that in my brain and be like, are you guys listening to the station that students are? And so I want to look at this idea of what's in it for them. I think it answers the next question, but of course I'm going to have you elaborate on it. But in what way can experiential learning environments help institutions stand out? Not only for just attracting those students, but really keeping them engaged for their lifetime, especially when we're moving towards this ecosystem of higher education where hopefully students are going on ramps, off ramps and not just having a four year transactional experience.

Jay Roberts (05:38):

Well, and we could get into that too about the quote non-traditional learner, which is the highest growing demographic in higher ed today. So the idea that we only have an 18 to 21-year-old who's there for four years, that's really not the preponderance of what's happening in higher ed anymore. We have to think about adult learning pedagogy. What do adults want and need in a learning environment in addition to what we've typically thought of as our traditional student, the 18 to 21-year-old. And then we can throw into that the idea that the demographics of the student in higher ed has changed quite a bit. We have a much broader range of socioeconomic class and student that arrives on our campus and they bring a much broader diversity of experiences and preparation for what's happening in higher ed. So that's all as a caveat to talk about your question, which is more about how do we think, not just about attracting the student, but keeping them engaged, not in the time that they're with us in higher ed, and then how do we continue that kind of care and responsibility for that student beyond just the classes they take and the experiences they have on our campus.

(06:56):

So you're probably familiar with George COO's work High Impact Practices. So this came out 2008, I believe was the original study. But what he was really interested in was students reporting after the fact, after they'd experienced college, what they thought were some of the most impactful and important experiences they had as an undergraduate. And that work, which involved a lot of studies and a really large dataset that's been replicated over and over. Now identify some things that probably won't surprise you. So the students report things like my study abroad experience or my first year seminar experience or the opportunity I had to do service learning at the college, the opportunity I had to do undergraduate research, the opportunity I had to have an internship. So when we think about these, I believe all of them have as their central pedagogical core experiential learning, they're talking about, these students are talking about the most impactful experiences they've had in on campus are things that involve that question of relevance that we already just talked about, that question of collaborative experience.

(08:14):

So why would a first year seminar learning community matter to a student? Well, because they're just getting started and they're looking around and they're wondering if they belong. And a well-designed first year seminar creates that sense of community and belonging. And now that student can look back on that and say, that really launched me for success in college. When you think about an internship as an obvious one, students really want to be set up for success post college. They want to know that the value proposition of paying tuition and choosing an institution will translate into something that they will find valuable and meaningful over time. And so these things, when we think about how colleges and universities can infuse more experiential learning throughout that student's time, whether it's four years or two years, if it's a community college or a non-traditional student who might be going to school part-time, the more we can infuse those into the curriculum, I think the more those students are going to be engaged with the institution while they're there.

(09:17):

And the more when they become alums, they'll look back and say, yes, that investment that I made of my precious time and my resources made sense to me because it's not just given me a job, which is kind of a necessary, but in my opinion, insufficient quality. It's given me a life, it's given me a meaningful life. And that really as humans, we're not just workers, right? There are grander projects for us as human beings than a salary. A salary is important, but it shouldn't be the sole reason we exist as humans in the world.

Shauna Cox (09:53):

Well, and it's the idea of you don't live to work, you work to live. And that is, I think, a very important thing. And when you mentioned investment, we're in such a time where everybody's questioning the value of higher ed. What's the ROI? There's the radio station, what's in it for me? And so I think it's really important when you can demonstrate that, and you mentioned this idea of internships or certain programs or events or things like that, launching that student. But I also think it can really bring them into the beyond when they're well in their careers. So I kind of want to expand on this idea and ask, to what extent does a hands-on education shape a student's ability to adapt, to problem solve and continue to learn well beyond their graduation?

Jay Roberts (10:43):

So this is one of my favorite topics to talk about. Shauna, my last book that I wrote was called Risky Teaching, and it's really about when we do it well, whether you're a faculty member or a student, there is an element of risk in the classroom. There's an element of, I'm not sure I can do this as a student. Or maybe the way the faculty member orchestrates the class, the students are like, whoa, wait a second. You're asking us to work on a project with a community partner for whom our end deliverable is going to be assessed by them. Suddenly, that feels a lot more relevant, but also a little bit risky compared to a midterm and a final. So these learning environments, in my opinion, are critical to setting a student up for success post-graduation because we know the classic line is we live in a complex unscripted world where the problems are readily known, but the answers are not readily available to us.

(11:50):

And that's in everything. Who's going to be my life partner? Should I have kids? What's happening with climate change? How do we solve food insecurity? These are the things that are on students' mind just as much as how do I get a job? And so if we're going to create learning environments where they have to wrestle with uncertainty, where they have to wrestle with complexity, where they're not just simply thinking about a scripted experience, but an unscripted experience where they have to bring themselves to it and try to make sense of a messy environment, I think that's some of the most powerful learning happens in those contexts. And I think if we can create more of those during an undergraduate student's career, when they move out into the workforce or into family life or into civic life, and they have to address those wicked problems in those spaces, they're going to be more ready, address those in a productive way and not just say, don't know how to do this because my whole life, K 12 and higher ed has been spent simply filling out worksheets and studying for exams

Shauna Cox (13:00):

And being told what to do, and really a rigid guideline there of what to do. And don't get me wrong, I love rules. I love following them, but you need a little bit of a sandbox to play with. And I think that ability there, and I love this that you mentioned your book of risky teaching because it dovetails so nicely into the next question, and it's my favorite when they can just smoothly transition. So what roles should faculty and academic leaders play when scaling immersive learning across these programs, while at the same time maintaining academic integrity and a more measurable impact that they know they're going to be asked about?

Jay Roberts (13:37):

Yeah, Shauna, I'm glad you asked that and that you didn't use one of my least favorite words in the academy, which is rigor.

Shauna Cox (13:46):

We

Jay Roberts (13:46):

Always throw this word rigor out, assuming that everybody agrees with what rigor means and assuming that it's always a good, right. So we have to also remember that rigor has another word, and it has to do with rigor mortis, which is a stiff dead body. So yes, of course we want challenging academic environments. We want environments where students are pushed hard to do important work, but sometimes we throw that word rigor in as a way to say, well, I can't really do experiential learning in my classrooms because my content is rigorous. But there's lots of different forms of rigor. There's the kind of rigor that comes with memorizing things. I'm not suggesting that that's not appropriate. Of course it is. There's the rigor that comes with understanding complex phenomenon and studying really hard to understand how molecules work together in a certain way. But there's also the rigor of speaking up in class when you're really nervous.

(14:49):

There's also the rigor of working in a team. There's also the rigor of walking out of the classroom and into the field and engaging with real people in real spaces. Sometimes those are the spaces where students are most uncomfortable. They would prefer to be in their room studying really hard and looking at the textbook. So this isn't an either or proposition. I think that we're after, as you said, measurable impact and academic environments that are both challenging and also engaging for our students. So one of my favorite examples that I bring up is from the American Academy for the Advancement of Science. These are scientists writing to other scientists, and I won't give you the whole quote, I don't have it memorized, but the first line is, as scientists, we have to put the depth versus breadth debate behind us.

(15:43):

The point that they're making is it's impossible to cram all of the content of the life sciences into a four year degree program. So we should stop trying. We should start thinking more about what are the key concepts that we want to get across to students and what we want them to practice and demonstrate in their learning. So often you get this response of, I don't have time to do experiential learning. I have so much content to cover. And really the paradigm shift for faculty is when they stop trying to cover content and they start trying to uncover student learning is a difference. And that means less is more. And that's hard for us faculty. We have expertise in subject matter, and we really like to make sure that our students are trained just like us, even though most of them won't get a PhD.

(16:32):

And so when we let go of this idea that I have to cover all this content and scope and sequence, and we start to think more about what are these enduring understandings that we want our students to take away from our course, it frees us up to incorporate more experiential learning. Maybe you're going to do a problem-based learning unit in your semester. Maybe you're going to engage with a community partner as part of your semester. Maybe you're going to do more gamification and simulations and team-based learning in your semester. These are all things that any faculty member can do and any discipline, so long as you let go of that idea that my job is to cover content.

Shauna Cox (17:16):

Well, and I love this idea here because challenging the norm, you're challenging a word that I threw to you, and I think that's what we need to do. We need to challenge the traditional structure that we have been in in order to push towards innovation, to push towards what we need to do in this new era of higher education that we're going to call it. And I think those are some really great starting points for that, and just having that courage to push the envelope step towards that line. But it all has positive outcomes or goals at the end. So I think you're allowed to step inside the sandbox here for

Jay Roberts (17:57):

That. Well, of course, we know that what we're doing in higher ed is changing rapidly. So I mentioned this at the beginning with artificial intelligence. It really is a stress test how we consider what learning is supposed to look like in higher ed. So it started with the increase in the internet and the ways in which, oh my gosh, if all I'm doing is lecturing to my students, they can get that on YouTube any day of the week. Well, AI has been an amplification of that at an extraordinary level. So now a student can take the assignment that was given, I need you to read this chapter, and I need you to post on the learning management system some key questions from that chapter and your thoughts on it. They can have AI do that for them in 0.05 seconds. And we can either wring our hands and try to be the plagiarism police and try to find out how students are utilizing technology in ways that are cheating.

(18:56):

Or we can say, maybe we ought to think about a different form of engaged learning. And you're seeing this already. I mean, faculty are moving back to things like oral examination. They're moving back to a greater emphasis on class participation as a huge part of the grade. They're asking for students to demonstrate their learning in new and novel ways because they know that if it's just a five page paper, there's a high degree of likelihood that that student will utilize ai, whether you like it or not, to help augment their writing. And so it's just creating a whole new set of challenges, but also opportunities for us to think about what is engaged learning supposed to look like, and how do we as faculty curate that in an era where artificial intelligence and technology can serve as both a help and a hindrance to students.

Shauna Cox (19:53):

Absolutely. And I'm going to expand on that and kind of give you almost a magic wand at this point, because we think about the future of higher education, what new dimensions should define what student success is beyond retention and graduation rates?

Jay Roberts (20:11):

So another study that I really like is the Gallup Big Six study. And again, a big data set. They went and looked at graduates of colleges and universities that were in jobs where they were stating that they found the work that they were doing meaningful. So it's back Shauna to our conversation about, it's not just about making money, it's about making a life. And then they asked a series of questions and they solved for pattern. And they had these six fundamental findings about what students or graduates who are in jobs and vocations that they found very meaningful for them, what they said about their undergraduate experience. And they said these six things. One was I had a professor who cared about me as a person.

(21:06):

Another one was that I had a mentor who helped connect my major to my career interests. And then other ones were, I worked on a project that took more than a semester to complete. I was heavily involved in extracurricular and co-curricular activities, and I did an internship that helped connect my major to what I wanted to do after college. So all of these things are ways we can consider, okay, are we giving those kinds of experiences to students? So beyond just retention and graduation rate, are we giving them these big six experiences, these high relationship experiences, and these high experiential connections? And so they looked back in higher ed and they ask these students, how many of you had all six of these in your undergraduate career? Do you know what percentage of students said they had all six?

Shauna Cox (22:11):

I'm going to say like 2%.

Jay Roberts (22:13):

You're so close. Three. Three. I'll take three over two. Yeah. So when we think about success, what if we defined it as every student will have these big six opportunities. That's a different form of success, and it actually will move the needle on the other things that you care about, tension and graduation rate and post-college success in terms of social mobility and what they go on to in terms of her career. So again, it's not either or. We can do both of these things.

Shauna Cox (22:45):

Absolutely. Well, amazing, Jay, those are all the questions that I have for you. But before I let you go, is there anything else you'd like to add in terms of inspiring belonging, creating that lifelong engagement, the world of ai, or any advice you may have or anything that I missed that you want to talk about?

Jay Roberts (23:02):

Yeah. Well, I think one thing we haven't touched on is the importance of skills. And I think this is really emerging, and I think it will define to a large degree the way we think about teaching and learning in higher ed over this next decade. So we know that employers really don't so much care about what the major was or what your GPA was. There's a study from the National Association of Colleges employers that show that GPA and major screening has dropped dramatically over the last five years. They're not screening for GPA and major anymore. They're screening for skill. And so you're seeing this in higher ed with the rise of badges and certificates and certifications. We're trying to figure out how to respond to what employers say that they want. So we know that employers, the top three things that employers want, number one is problem solving.

(23:57):

That's the number one thing they want as a student to be able to demonstrate as a candidate for hire. So how are we getting students to not only experience problem solving, but then articulate in a compelling story in an interview, how they have handled problem solving in their college career? The next one is teamwork. Same thing. So that's the top two. And if we think about it, how do we create more opportunities for students not to just take courses, which is required and it's important, but how can we do alongside that meaningful and purposeful skill development? What if every major did a curriculum map where in addition to what courses do students need to take, in what sequence they're thinking about? What five core skills do we want our students to be able to be introduced to practice and to master over those four years? And then how are we documenting that and how are we helping the students articulate that on a resume or articulate that in an interview? And no surprise, as someone who is an advocate of experiential learning, I think experiential learning properly designed allows students to develop those kinds of skills. So I would say that's a big one for everyone to keep an eye on is how are we doing what I might call liberal arts plus the plus being skill development as a huge part of a student's academic career.

Shauna Cox (25:26):

I love that. And I think the whole articulation around the skills is so critical because students would often say, and I know from my own experience with my graduates among me, they're like, well, we took this major, we took this elective. I don't know what that means. I just read some books. And it's like, no, no. That is not what it is. And I think students do need that help along the way of a mentor, whether it's career counseling or something, someone close to them to show them, no, no, you didn't just get a degree in journalism because that's what I got. It's like, if I didn't get a degree in journalism, I know x, Y, Z skills. And I think that is also how you can really elevate yourself to those employers. And so you come at them saying, I know how to do X, Y, Z, and they're like, I don't have to decipher what it means when you have a journalism degree. And I think that's even just put them a little bit up against anyone that's competing for that role.

Jay Roberts (26:25):

And so the last thing I'll say around that is I think another interesting space that we're moving into is what are called CLRs or comprehensive learner records. So how do we think about the transcript and the student experience as more than just a collection of courses, as you just said, towards a major? And are there ways that we can highlight for students and with students, the skills they're developing along the way, make that much more transparent and much more clear, rather than having it be something that a student's like, oh, wait, yeah. How do I talk about that? Again, it just becomes part of what their entire learning experience is in and out of the classroom.

Shauna Cox (27:06):

And for any learner, it doesn't have to be just a traditional student. It could be for someone who comes back into the institution to say, well, you have this many years of experience, and that's where you can go into CPL and everything like that. But having the, well, you're here and you've now taken this course, now you're up here. And that's how you can pitch yourself to a new job or for that promotion and things like that. So I really think we're moving towards more of this ecosystem of higher ed, where everybody's just kind on the same page and wants everybody to do well, and to really, I don't know, empower themselves to show who they are and what they can do. And just go back to the idea of you're not living to work. You are working to live. Yes. That's amazing. Well, Jay, thank you so much for the conversation. I had such a good time, and I will chat with you later.

Jay Roberts (27:59):

Oh, it's been a pleasure, Shauna. Thanks for inviting me on.