Emily Logan (Kirkwood Community College) on When Responsiveness Meets Relevance

On today’s episode of the Illumination by Modern Campus podcast, podcast host Shauna Cox was joined by Emily Logan to discuss the erosion of trust in higher education and the need for greater agility, employer collaboration, and alignment with modern learner expectations.

Transcript

Shauna Cox (00:02):

Emily, welcome to the Illumination podcast.

Emily Logan (00:05):

Thank you.

Shauna Cox (00:07):

So we are here to chat about this kind of trust in higher ed when it comes to career development, advancement and all these offerings that are occurring and needed in this time of general life, but also in higher ed. So I'm going to kick off our conversation and ask, what do you think has contributed to this erosion of trust in higher ed as that primary engine for career development and advancement?

Emily Logan (00:38):

I think one of the big factors is the value proposition, particularly the individuals in that millennial generation and younger started to experience. So the rising cost of college, the increased amount of college debt that people were incurring, and then perhaps not leading to the type of income or employment that they were necessarily aspiring to or hoping for, or that created a more livable situation to buy a home or to relocate to a new city or do the things that those individuals wanted to do. I really see that as sort of a spark that really started some of this. And then furthermore, when you have individuals doing what they could feel is the right thing by going to college and then not getting the result that they expect, that inevitably leads to people being disappointed. And usually there's got to be somebody to blame. And it's understandable that sometimes that person to blame has been higher education or tuition for higher education or whatever framework people want to use.

(01:44):

But in my mind, I think that was one of the core pieces. I think the other piece that's really important is that people know that there are wages available, livable wages without college degrees and sometimes higher ed, I think has shrunk from embracing that Instead of saying, yes, that's great actually you can do a technical program, you can do a short-term non-credit certificate. In some ways I feel like higher ed sort of held onto the degree it's so important, but when people hire you for the same hourly wage as they do, your peer who does not have a college degree, that tells you something and it's about the value in the marketplace. And so I feel like that has also had a huge impact on people's eroding trust about is this really worth what people say it is to make this investment with my energy and my time and my money?

Shauna Cox (02:38):

And I want to dive into the employer piece of it. I think so often we hear that people go through their program whether it's two years, four years, and at the end of it they can't get a job or employers are complaining that these graduates don't have the skills that I'm looking for. And there's some sort of disconnect between what employers and what higher ed is delivering to their students. And depending on the institution, some people can align it better than others, but how can colleges and universities better align their offerings with these real-time needs of employers and working professionals?

Emily Logan (03:16):

First of all, there has to be a feedback loop. I think that's the absolute most obvious, but yet most critical and sometimes the hardest thing to do is there has to be this feedback loop between employers, industry and higher education. I think the other thing that higher ed has to reckon with is that we move so slowly in terms of how fast we stand up credit programs or how quickly we make changes to credit programs. And with that slower pace means that if I own a car dealership and I need five technicians, I don't have two years to wait for them. What can you do for me in six weeks to help me have hireable technicians and then maybe I'll support them getting that two year degree because I'll value that technical growth. But when higher ed moves so slow and the rest of the world moves really fast, those things are going to be consistently out of alignment. So it's an opportunity for higher ed to think how can we be more nimble? What can we do maybe to experiment with non-credit certificates? What can we do to experiment with competency-based education? All of those different things that are potential ways that colleges lean into that. Otherwise, we are going to be consistently behind and if we stay behind, we're going to be left behind.

Shauna Cox (04:30):

Absolutely. And kind of combining the first question with the second question, I want to look at this whole idea of the trust of higher education, what it can deliver, especially when it comes to the workforce and those career outcomes that many, many learners are looking to the institution to get. They oftentimes, more often than not, they're going to get an education so that they can get a really good job. So in what ways can higher ed kind of demonstrate its value to specifically adult learners who have many challenges, often question higher ed if they have the time, the money, all these things? I would say that they're the demographic that is more inclined to not prioritize higher ed. So how can they demonstrate the value to these adult learners who are navigating or just pivoting in their career?

Emily Logan (05:25):

I think higher ed can demonstrate its value by being responsive to the needs of adult learners. And again, I feel like that's something that at times we've wanted adult learners to come in and fit into this box of being an 18, 19, 20 2-year-old student. And that's just not going to work. And if we aren't willing as higher education to take a look at our policies, our practices, our programs, our scheduling, when advisors are available, if I only have people available to me eight to five Monday through Friday, and I work a shift job and there's no way I can meet with an advisor between 8:00 AM at 5:00 PM I'm probably going to opt out. And so we have to be more responsive to the needs of adult learners, which means we have to adjust in higher ed. And oftentimes that's uncomfortable and we feel really proud of our tradition and we feel really proud about how we do things. And there's all kinds of research that unders how we do things and all of that can be true. And if we don't meet people where they're at, they will not come to us and they will go elsewhere.

Shauna Cox (06:27):

Absolutely. And I think this idea of meeting the learner where they are addressing their needs, specifically honestly breaking out of these traditional molds that higher ed has really set itself in or has sat in for a little too long and got a bit comfortable with is something that is so needed. So this sounds like such an obvious question, but I think it's important to emphasize how important is agility when it comes to program design and delivery program for institutions aiming to serve this modern workforce? And maybe can you share some best practices to achieve that?

Emily Logan (07:04):

We focus so much on quality as we should. We want our programs and our educational experiences to be high quality. And the word I heard you use is agility. So I think they have to be both. We have to have high quality and we have to have some degree of agility or flexibility. I would say if you have a quality program, that's great, but if people don't come to it, then what good is it? You can have a really convenient program, but if it's not very good, what good is it? So you really have to have both. So in my mind, in thinking about combining those two things together is that how can we both be agile as an institution flexible in our programming and ensure high quality content? So a couple things that come to mind for me is that institutions need to think out of the box.

(07:52):

Is there a partnership we can have with a local entity? Can we pilot something as a non-credit certificate? Can we work with a four year partner, a community college and reimagine what this pathway might look like? I really think it's going to be creativity that makes all the difference. And what's hard is that some people get so offended, they're like, no, this is not how we do it in higher ed. It's like, no, I get it, but we can't keep doing it that way because it's not going to work. And so let's build upon the great foundation we have in higher education and let's build upon all those things that have equipped us to have high quality programs because we know we do good work here. We know we do things that help people change their lives, and we also have to be able to be agile and flexible enough to meet the needs of not only the learners of today, but the learners of tomorrow.

Shauna Cox (08:43):

Absolutely. I love the idea of creativity, and yes, we've been doing it this way for so many years, but one, it's starting not to work. And two, we can respect those boundaries, but at the same time we can kind of push them and push them to where they need to go to not completely flip the script and just introduce something completely new, but just test where we can kind of play and innovate and get creative. And then of course, we talked about employers and that feedback loop and how critical that kind of collaboration is. So what partnerships or practices do you believe are essential for higher ed to rebuild its position as becoming this lifelong learning leader in a very disrupted job market?

Emily Logan (09:34):

I work at a community college, and so I feel like my answer is going to be largely based on the community college experience. And so that being said, at the community college level, what I would say is that we have to absolutely be intentional as higher ed folks to be reaching out and not only asking for feedback from employers, whether that's nonprofit startup businesses, longstanding employers in the community. I mean, all of the above we need to be open to, but we also have to be willing to listen to them when they tell us things we don't want to hear. And I think that's what tends to happen is like, oh, we don't really want to tell that college that actually we would never hire somebody from that program because we know how terrible that person is going to be, but if somebody doesn't tell us, we don't know.

(10:23):

And so we have to create enough trust and safety with our constituents, our community members to say, we want to know if we can do something better and then you can count on us, but if you tell us we need to do something better, we're going to do it and we're going to engage with you in making sure we do it in a way that provides you the workforce that you need. I think that's the key is sometimes we don't have the hard conversations, we just kind of shrink from those, and then people kind of go around each other. You've got to have the hard conversations. Even if that means that you have to repair relationships, you might have to pivot on a plan. And I know those things are all really hard to do, and I think they're absolutely necessary.

Shauna Cox (11:04):

Absolutely. I think it's important to, I think if you're a little too comfortable, then something's not working and we have to kind of step out of our comfort zone to get where we need to be to be serving those modern learners and address the needs that they have. But Emily, those are all the questions that I have for you. Is there anything else that you would like to add in terms of the work you're doing, any advice you may have or give us your community college perspective that leaders in other institutions may not know about?

Emily Logan (11:37):

Well, I think one of the really unique opportunities I've had in my career is I came from industry to teach at a community college as a faculty member, and then I became an academic dean. And then for the past two years, I've been a dean on the non-credit continuing education side of the house. And so I feel like I've kind of done this whole big loop of what it means to be a part of a community college. And what I would say is when I factor in all four of those roles, being a subject matter expert, faculty member, academic dean, non-credit dean, what I would say is there is just so much opportunity for internal collaboration within organizations to say, okay, I know we've always done it this way, or I know we've never offered this in a non-credit, short-term certificate, or we just have to be willing to ask the questions and then lean on each other and have people that we can do that brainstorming and creative work with.

(12:33):

The other thing we can start to do is do it across organizations. And I know sometimes that's not what everybody wants to do because we're all our own entity, but I really believe in what can we be doing in partnership with other colleges, whether there are other community colleges, four year, whatever that might be, or K twelves, that's the other area of opportunity. What can we be doing in partnership that we have just not thought of yet or we need to reimagine? So in terms of best practices, I think where I really find the most energy and invigoration is thinking, how do we bring together these people and these parts and figure out then with these people and parts, how do we better meet the needs that we have of our students and our employers?

Shauna Cox (13:16):

Absolutely. And I'm going to throw in one little quick question to add on to this. Do you have any advice for the first step to getting there? I know there's so many components where people could go, but if someone's like, all of that sounds so great, but where do I start? How do I start? How does somebody start the collaboration that they need, whether it's internal, external, any advice there?

Emily Logan (13:40):

I think first you got to lean into the people you trust and be willing to listen and learn. And then I think once you have a sense of, okay, yep, I can start to talk about doing things differently with people, I can do this, then I think you have to push yourself and you have to say, okay, I really want to just get somebody else's completely different perspective and I just want to hear from 'em and I want to listen, and then I want to ask them, help me understand. Help me figure out how these things could be connected or go together. That's what I would say. I think conversation is huge. I think without those discussions and the dialogue and maybe sometimes some heated dialogue, we miss the opportunities for iron to sharpen iron.

Shauna Cox (14:21):

Absolutely. Amazing. Well, thank you for answering that because I think it can sound really daunting and people might feel like they're the only person on the ship that's kind of driving it or steering it, and it's not. It's just have a couple of conversations and I think stuff can kind of bubble up from that and make those connections where they can. So amazing. Emily, again, thank you so much for your time for joining me and having this conversation. I really appreciate it.

Emily Logan (14:45):

Thank you.