Rod Lastra (CAUCE) on A New Path Forward for Canadian Continuing Education

On today’s episode of the Illumination by Modern Campus podcast, podcast host Shauna Cox was joined by Rod Lastra to discuss how a distinctly Canadian lens and foundational global movements like extension and UNESCO help shape the evolution and mission of university continuing education.

Transcript

Shauna Cox (00:02):Rod, welcome to the Illumination Podcast.

Rod Lastra (00:05):Thank you so much. Happy to be here.

Shauna Cox (00:07):So we are here, of course, to have a really important conversation, I think in the context of not only Canada, but also in higher ed. We're here to talk about that history context of CE and maybe some exciting news that you are going to share about a new course that is coming out. But I first want to kick off our conversation and ask you why is it important to view the evolution of university continuing education, also known as UCE through a distinctly Canadian lens in today's global learning environment?

Rod Lastra (00:40):Yeah, thanks. And maybe I'll answer your first question at the end of answering this question. So I think that right now, it's fair to say that higher education seems to be under siege globally. There are stressors and strainers happening in the eu, in the uk, obviously in the us, and we are experiencing our own. Now, the rationale for this course is not to talk about the stressors necessarily, but really to recognize that the drivers behind these stressors are uniquely defined by the context in which we reside. And to answer your question, why is it important to look at Lake University continuing education from a Canadian lens? Well, here's a couple of answers. Number one, our unique constitutional arrangements, our regional economies, indigenous reconciliation priorities, our bilingual national identity define who we are as a nation and define the history of our higher education space that is somewhat unique in its own flavor compared to what's happening in the US compared to what's happening in other places of the world.

(01:55):The other aspect that's important is that there's been a lot written, a lot of papers, a lot of books. And to be honest, although there has been books and publications written on the Canadian context, we tend to be out shown based on just numbers. So I think having that historical context is really important. And here's another reason. The fact is that continuing education is not a discipline, and let me explain. It's not like chemistry or physics or math. There are no standards of practice. We are an applied practice of education, and that's what we've been, that's what we are, and that's what we're heading. And that's not bad. But what that means is that to understand our context and to understand what continuing education means from a Canadian lens, we need to look at our own definitions. We need to look on our own application of practice, both historically and currently.

(03:00):And again, those applications and definitions differ. If you go to London, for example, if you go to the UK and ask what continuing education is, you will find points of commonality, but you will find perhaps differences in the details. The same thing goes in the us, the same thing goes in other places. So I think the Canadian CE model reflects our own institutional histories and societal needs within the country. The other point I should make as well is the reason why it's important to reflect in this context is because within the context, there's a great deal of diversity. So it is impossible for an applied practice of education to say that we are one. What we do best is that we are a diverse assemblage of units. No two units are identical, and that's by design. And so the purpose of this program is really to not only reflect on the commonalities of who we are, but to expand some time to maybe begin to unravel where those differences come in and why those individual differences are so vitally important in terms of maintaining our sustainability, maintaining our mission and our service to our learners.

(04:19):So with all that said, I think that was kind of, I suppose the genesis behind the idea. This program, which has not been a program, it was first initiated way back when, I think around 2017 and perhaps even further, but the last iteration came forward by the previous president of ku, Gary Hepburn and others to really begin to look at what was then described as the CE 1 0 1 course.

(04:54):I think we came to a certain point of development in terms of ideation, and then we stalled because again, we didn't find a home. And as I mentioned to you before we went live today, that one of the things that really was important for this to become a reality was conversation I had with Joanne Clark, who is current president of KU and Dean of continuing education at Victoria, the possibility of forming a partnership with ku, ending the receive Victoria to be able to offer this as a micro certificate within their case program. And so this is what really made this from an ideation concept to something that's a little bit more tangible.

Shauna Cox (05:37):Absolutely. So many good golden nuggets in there. And I want to keep on this theme of the history, a reason history is so rich and so important. So how do historical foundations like the extension movement or UNESCO's frameworks continue to influence the mission of Canadian UCE units?

Rod Lastra (05:57):Excellent question. I guess I can begin by actually try to answer both of them individually. So let's begin with extension first. Now, it's important to note that not all university continuing education units in Canada originated as extension units. And I'll define what that is in a moment, right? But a vast majority of our units who are 60 years of age or older, very likely started from the extension movement. And the extension movement began over a century ago. And really its main aim was to extend the reach. And this is important, extend the reach of universities beyond their campuses to serve broader societal needs and to affirm the relevance within their community. Faculty delivered courses to adult learners often in evenings or through correspondence and what later became known as evening classes, distance education, and summer education.

(07:03):So more than just an outreach, the extension movement was really a vehicle for social connection through education, accessibility, public service. It catalyzed the academic study of adult education in Canada in the 1940s and fifties. And that's important for who we are today. And it introduced the broader concept that being of the university's role to serve society. And that was really, really important. Now, here's another interesting cool fact is, as I was mentioning earlier, there's a lot of diversity in terms of what we do within the UCE space. You grab any two institutions and they're all going to be different. But one of the cool things is that the DNA, the makeup, the elemental components of what a UCE unit is all about, typically it is a conglomeration of things. It's multidisciplinary, right? So there's language programs, there is a lot of activities, pathways to degree programs, non-degree programming.

(08:04):All of that, I would say about more than 50% of the elements of what makes a current UCE in some ways originated from the extension movement, really originated from that connection back to the university. And that's something that we'll talk about perhaps a little later, is that connection is still relevant to this day. So again, it helped bridge opportunities for non-traditional learners. It reinforced the strategic alignment between units and their host universities. Now, when you take a look at the entire history of extension and how it kind of morphed into continuing education in the 1960s and seventies, that essence of being was retained. And the other thing that was also retained and perhaps lost in some ways as was that strong connection to university, that strong connection that it is an extension of the institution's mission. And I would argue to this day, that's who we are.

(09:06):We're not independent autonomous entities working within institutions. We are part of the university. We carry the flag of our institutions. We carry the mission and purpose and value of our institutions. And perhaps as we move forward in the uncertainties of the times that we live in, that's a really important message to remember it again, why the history is important. Now, the second half of your question is the UNESCO question. So unesco, its influence on UCE is a little bit more indirect, but I would say equally as profound. Now, for many of our listeners who may or may not know, the United Nations established UNESCO shortly after World War II to be exact November 16th, 1945. And the name actually implies the educational, scientific and cultural organization. And the main purpose of UNESCO was to create peace and development through knowledge. So that's really, really critical. Its main mandates were really to preserve cultural and linguistic diversity, mobilization of scientific knowledge, how to solve global challenges such as food security and climate change.

(10:21):And for us, what's really relevant is the use of education as a means of transformation. Crucially, UNESCO and the broader UN framework declared that education is a fundamental human rights and emphasized the emancipatory power of lifelong learning in the 1970s to unlock human potential and to challenge oppression. Right. Now, again, why is this relevant? Established? Shortly after World War ii, one of the first countries to sign on and to consistently stay on board working alongside with UNESCO was Canada. We signed on November 4th, 1946, the year that the Constitution came into being right. And we are one of the original members. There are currently 194 members. We're one of the original members, and we have never deviated from our membership from unesco.

(11:18):And so that is a really important point, and the alignment to us is this, that it really works towards the orientation towards knowledge as a public good and education as a force for human betterment, which I believe still resonates strongly within our sector. So together with a legacy of extension, the vision of UNESCO continues to shape our collective mission to make universities more inclusive, responsive, and engaged in the world around them. I should also note, I'll be remiss not to mention this, that many of our members by members, I'm saying individuals, including myself, have worked for unesco. So there is an alignment of purpose. And when I was on research leave last year, I took a two year stint working with the unesco, which came to an end this year. And one of the things that I found really eyeopening was the justification that we in continuing education often have to justify our existence, what we do, the purposes of what we do in the UNESCO mandate, it's already imprinted in terms of their global strategy, so what they do. So it's kind of nice to speak the same language in that way in terms of global initiatives.

Shauna Cox (12:37):Yeah, no, I think that's really important to highlight. And I love all of this history that you're sharing and providing that colorful context for us and making the connection points. Because I think oftentimes people go, well, it's history, it's in the past, but no, no, it's important to know so that we can be in the moment and move forward. And we walked through this history and clearly there's this momentum to move into this new area of, or new era, new area, however you want to phrase it, of transformation. So how will this new course that you've mentioned and would love to hear more about it and its mentorship components, help kus build a more unified and connected national community of UCE professionals?

Rod Lastra (13:23):Well, again, great question. I think that oftentimes when we create these programs, we create it for others. And so we consult, we create it for others. Here's a great example of a program we're creating for ourselves, and I'll explain the rationale behind this, but why the design of the program really in very high levels, and we still haven't got to the creation of the course content just yet, but the idea behind it will be to have standard materials that learners will engage with. But I think personally, the most important element is that mentoring component. And to recognize that the idea of this program is really to engage with perhaps new practitioners, new professionals, new leaders. And the approach that we're going to take is to align closely with the principles of andragogy and pedagogy. So in other words, adult learners we know thrive when they can draw on their experiences and engage in self-directed inquiry, build meaningful relationships.

(14:32):And this is especially true when we're trying to think about how this is going to translate into a program for continuing education professionals. The mentoring component I think is really important. And personally, I think this is the most exciting part of the program. The idea to be able to bring seasoned senior folks from the Canadian continuing education sector that come and meet to mentor, to speak, to provide guidance in sessions that are going to be perhaps synchronous sessions online. And I think that's an opportunity to really build beyond the simply didactic model, simply one that we're dictating or we're providing information. It emphasizes dialogue, it emphasizes the co-construction of knowledge, the development of what I like to call a national community of learning, so that when folks attend, if they're new, they will be part of a larger community, they will learn who our members are, who our senior folks are around the table. And I think it's to really help foster an intergenerational peer-to-peer connection. I think that is the value of this partnership with CE and the University of Victoria. And it really helps support and drive professional development, and perhaps not just for people who are directly involved in the sector, but perhaps for others who may be interested in the whole area of adult education and skilling.

Shauna Cox (16:03):Absolutely. And I love the idea of community that you're creating there, but I'm just wondering how do you see the historical context that you've highlighted and these modern innovations that are coming out, like micro-credentials, digital platforms, how do you see those working together to shape the future of UCE in Canada?

Rod Lastra (16:24):Oh, that's a good question. I think it comes down to one thing. I think it comes down to recognizing that, just pausing, because I think recognizing one important thing, credentials are not the end all be all. Now for the people listening to this podcast that's going to resonate hopefully, or I think many people are going to say that's obvious. Credentials have instrumental value, meaning they get to achieve something. What we're trying to do really is to, and what we've done historically is to really try to innovate our learning spaces, which can be defined as understanding the aspect of the creation of universal affordances to access education for everyone. And this has been a hallmark of Canadian University continuing education since inception, even during the extension era.

(17:27):So again, from the earliest evening classes, summer session distance, online non-degree credentials, the mission has been consistently to remove barriers to learning and to serve the diversity of needs of adult learners. Now, why is that important in an era that we live in today? Because innovation and learning and strategies and innovation and learning are key to be able to engage and are key to be able to have participation in this space. We know, and we talked about the collective we, the fact that the times that we live in now, perhaps careers are not going to be lifelong. Perhaps there's going to be a shelf life to skills. Perhaps all of that is going to play a role in the fact that people need continuing education in some form or another to continue with their professional competencies or to perhaps even move into new areas. I think what this program will focus on, again, will be not only on building that national community of learning, but also to build an understanding of how we work in this space, what it means to be kind of entrepreneurial in the sense of working with emerging need and what it truly means to be innovative in the space of learning and education.

(18:51):I dare say that I have the utmost respect for universities and for what they do. I think an essential function in this day and age. But really, I mean, when it comes to pivoting, and I hate that term, but I'll use it for the lack of a better term, we've always done that quite successfully. We've always been able to adopt technologies, to be able to serve our learners, to be able to extend the mission of education to the masses. And again, this goes beyond workforce development that goes towards ensuring that we have societal mission, societal valuation in terms of what we do, whether it's EDI programming, whether it's programming related to two reconciliation, the emancipation movement of women was partly started in the East coast by the extension movement. I shouldn't say started. It was facilitated. It was enabled in that sense. So education from a larger perspective is really critical.

(19:58):It's really important to what we do. And I think hopefully the design of this program will shed some light on being able to do that. Right. I should say one more thing as well, and I think I'm straying a little bit from the purpose of your question, so maybe bring me back at the end here. But one important thing to recognize is that Canadian universities through their UCE units, I'll say that again. Canadian universities through their UCE units have reached tens of thousands of learners annually for generations. Right now, this little fact is not really widely recognized, but when it comes to delivering continuing education, it's not a peripheral activity, but it's a core means to fulfill the university's societal and economic mission to build and to create a resilient population. So I think that's important. That's a really important component as again, we move forward in an era where there's so much uncertainty. Alright, so anyways, bring me back if I missed anything in terms of what you're asking.

Shauna Cox (21:13):Yeah, no, everything was good there. It answered the question perfectly. I just want to touch on this idea of that collective that is moving forward. There's this moment of uncertainty that we're sitting in, but we really, what you guys are doing is bringing everyone together as this collective. So what are those pressing challenges that Canadian UCE leaders must address within the next couple of years to ensure the sector is remaining relevant, resilient, equitable? And I'm just going to add maybe some advice you'd like to share on that.

Rod Lastra (21:47):Yeah, that's a great question. And I fear that there isn't a universal answer to that, but I'll do my best to be as general as possible, right? Number one, I think we cannot forget one complexity or perhaps reality. Let's not use the word complexity, perhaps reality. All these units function as cost recovery revenue units. Now that's a conversation unto itself. I'm not going to dig into that, but that brings with it some realities that I think we need to be cognizant of. Now, I said earlier that hindsight has shown that we have been pretty good. Universities have been really good through their extension units or through their UCE units later to be able to serve and respond with need as it emerges. Here's the challenge.

(22:47):The challenge that we face is that learners are expecting more. I would say that there's a degree of sophistication of expectation that perhaps didn't exist 40, 50 years ago. And let me explain what I mean by that. There's a resonance in terms of understanding that in order to move forward in society, in order to move forward professionally and personally, the expectations from universities are changing and universities are now challenged to face those vast expectations. Right now, I am not saying the answer is university continuing education, not at all. But one of the aspects that we can do in order to address the growing diversity of need is to leverage the expertise of these units to be able to respond, to be able to engage with their partners. Sometimes it's community partners, sometimes is industry partners, sometimes it's government partners to be able to build programs that resonate, to be able to build program that provide affordances.

(24:00):And by the way, my use of the term affordances is not necessarily the cost of the program. I'm saying affordances and being able to provide opportunities to learn. And I think universities are more and more recognizing the value of this, the value that we need to respond. Now, from our own perspective, I think that we've seen recently the federal decision to limit postgraduate work permits has not affected everyone equally, but it has affected some units more than others. And I think it instills one important aspect of what we have done in the past and what we should continue to do in the future. And perhaps my 2 cents in terms of perhaps recommendations as we move forward. Resiliency is based on a very basic ecological principle of diversity. The more diverse in function that we are, the more resilient that we will be in the future for a cost recovery unit that doesn't necessarily rely on the assurances of government funding in a direct way, we need to diversify our function, which means that past practices, which for some of us was not necessarily a bad choice at the time to invest into international education.

(25:17):What has happened recently I think shines light on the fact that we need to diversify, but we also need to go back to first principles. And I think I go back to your question at the very beginning, why is history important? And here's why history is important. Our long-term viability to serve Canadians, to serve newcomers is going to be dependent on our ability to leverage not only the expertise and the academic quality and intellectual capacity of our institutions, but to partner with our institutions like we did in the past, to work with them, to be able to have some degree of coexistence, not view our institutions as the other, our institution, CS as the other. But I think we need to work together. We need to diversify. And I think ultimately that long-term sustainability comes in the form of our ability to service Canadians and the needs of Canadians in this country at a time when, again, there's so much uncertainty.

(26:24):There's so much that we need to transmit by way of information, by way of education. The AI revolution is here, the era of social misinformation and disinformation is here. The era of the precarity of the work and labor force is here. The age of perhaps intolerance is here. To some extent. Education plays a role in helping mediate and helping us as a society move to a better place. And that's what we've learned in the past. And so I think, again, may have kind of gone off topic here, but I think that's kind of the purpose of what we're trying to do. And I should say that the strength of a program like this really lies in the ability to be able to provide that lens of understanding to those who are coming into this field. Right?

Shauna Cox (27:25):Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I love you highlighted all of these things that are going on. It's not one or two things. We're so overwhelmed by all of the noise that is in our personal lives, in our work lives in higher education, everything like that. So I think this idea of leaning on each other and having that level of collaboration is so key to moving forward instead of isolating everyone, this is the time when we're supposed to come together. So I love the work that you are doing here and that course that's coming out. Those are all the questions I have for you. But is there anything else that you'd like to add that I may have missed about the work you're doing, CE in Canada, anything?

Rod Lastra (28:05):No, I think your questions really kind of struck at the main purpose. I mean, I will say one thing as a closing comment, kind of a fun little factoid again, to reflect on history and reflect on really the unknown transformative impacts of education and what they could have. As I mentioned earlier, extension schools really defined the summer session thing, the flexibility of learning. And part of that was evening courses, distance, online distance correspondence back then and summer, one of the summer schools that existed was in Dartmouth College. And 1956, a summer school actually hosted a bunch of academics to come together and work on the problem. Remember, summer extension school

(28:51):Work on a problem. The problem they're going to work on was a little known problem. Can machines think? And folks like Jack McCarthy and Claude Shannon and Marvin Minsky got together that summer under their extension school at Dartmouth, and they coined the term artificial intelligence and the rest is history. So I think that's a really cool idea that we are part of a larger ecosystem of learning. We are part of a larger ecosystem that is really valuable within our institutions. And I think the transformative impact of education in all its forms, both in degree and non-degree, is something that we should hold on tightly as we move forward into the future and learn about in terms of how we can do a better job executing what we need to do.

Shauna Cox (29:40):Amazing. I'm just dropping the mic right there. Amazing. Well, rod, thank you so much for providing us such rich information for us to take back with us, hopefully apply it into our lives and for other people to take a look at the course, see what it's about and things like that. It was so great having you on. Thanks again.

Rod Lastra (29:59):Awesome. Always great talking to you, Shauna.