Lisa Marsh Ryerson (Southern New Hampshire University) on A People-First Approach to Personalized Learning

On today’s episode of the Illumination by Modern Campus podcast, podcast host Shauna Cox was joined by Lisa Marsh Ryerson to discuss rethinking labels in higher ed by viewing all as learners and emphasizes the importance of flexible, personalized models that support diverse life paths.

Transcript

Shauna Cox (00:02):Lisa, welcome to the Illumination Podcast.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (00:05):Shauna, I'm so delighted to be with you. It's a podcast that I follow, and so I want you to know it's like a total treat to be your guest today.

Shauna Cox (00:13):Well, I am very honored and I already love the energy that you are bringing to the table. And we are here, of course, to talk about personalized learning models, removing barriers for students, and just overall ensuring lifelong success. So I want to kick off this conversation and first ask you, how are flexible learning models kind reshaping higher ed's approach to supporting those non-traditional and SENC learners?

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (00:37):Yeah, thank you for asking. And as you were talking about the topics that we cover and what you cover on the podcast, I was just thinking, okay, we're going to talk about my favorite things. Amazing. So that's great. I love it. That's great. Shauna. So flexible learning models are definitely transforming higher education, and I believe it's for a foundational design principle. And that means that putting learners at the center of everything we do in education, truly across a life course or a lifetime, nets the best results for those learners and then therefore for their families and for their communities. So listening to learners and having a learner first people first approach is why we're seeing more flexible learning models. Shauna, for me, that means using that as your basic design principle as opposed to saying, we'll sit in a space experts and we'll design learning and we'll plunk it down on people. And that's never the way you have the best designs really of anything. And specifically for learners. The reason why they're also growing is, as you said, some college no credential is that population is growing. So when you have a population of learners that every year is about 40 million up a little some years down, a little other years, that's an indicator to us that we have many, many people, certainly in the United States, but around the world who start higher education,

(02:12):But for a multitude of reasons are not having success and obtaining whatever level of learning or credential they're pursuing. And that's frustrating. And then when they go to restart, they're not able to have all of their credit for prior learning, whether it's transfer credits or competencies they've gained on a job apply to the next bite of learning that is daunting. It takes too much time and it's too expensive

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (02:38):Learners of all ages. So flexible learning means, and there's a high growth in online learning, which is inherently not taking place based and just tossing it online. It's all about designing for learners who need high flexibility in their learning and models that maximize transfer credit, credit for prior learning models that recognize individuals need to learn when they have time in their life doesn't go as planned. So learners who might be getting up in the morning and dropping off children at school or at daycare, then going to a job, maybe they have a second job and if their learning can take place after 10:00 PM at night, let's offer that

(03:27):Learners who are on the road for their jobs and can only learn when they stop off at a rest stop. Flexible learning that is highly personalized allows those pathways for our learners. The other reason, Shauna, where it's taking off, and I know you've read a lot about older non-traditional learners, and I'd love to get your take on this. We use the words traditional learner and non-traditional learner. Could we just use learner or person? Because although it's age related, and we know when we look at the numbers of some college, no credential, there are a third of people are over age 25

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (04:12):SHNU. 70% of our learners are over age 25, but learners of any age need learning that is designed and supports that are designed to understand each unique learners' circumstances,

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (04:31):Identities, their life, and then to provide the flexibility and just in time supports that help them get to the finish line, whether that's an associate's degree or a PhD.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (05:10):We could talk forever. I can tell already

Shauna Cox (05:13):We're just going to have a two hour podcast to this conversation. But in terms of the first point I want to take is I love the people approach that people first approach and calling them people, first of all, that whole idea of nontraditional learner, nontraditional student, student, traditional, all those terms, I think are really starting to, and quite honestly, I've noticed in the past couple of months really accelerating of higher ed leaders really removing that because I had a conversation with someone, I think it was just two days ago, that they're like, we don't use the term, they are learners and learners. They're just, that is what it is. Tend to use the phrase modern learners, but I

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (05:59):Love that

Shauna Cox (06:00):Modern learners can be a very broad definition, but learners doesn't matter what part of the institution you're in, how old you are. A learner is a learner. And I think going back to that people first approach, when if you're a student that's coming back and you're, as you mentioned, not having, they do all this work and they've done all this work for years with the institution, they come back and then all of a sudden it means nothing. That validation for them is just out the window. They don't feel validated. And I think correct, that's such a key point in engaging and retaining these learners that we want to have their life cycle.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (06:39):I think you've really hit to the heart of it, Shauna and don't feel valued, don't feel seen. And I think most importantly, oftentimes in conversations with people who are learning at SNHU, they'll believe they have to, there's a little bit of shame. I hate to put labels on it, but I do want to say that, oh, I started at this time, life got in the way. Why do we put that burden on learners? Yes, all of that occurred and that's okay.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (07:13):Makes it, and that's okay. We're where we are today. And that's true for each and every one of us. Again, as I said, life just doesn't go as planned. And the more we recognize that, and if we hold at the center, that learning at any point in our lifetime is a social determinant of health,

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (07:38):The ability to have access to education and learning time after time, year after year, we know helps people unlock opportunity in their lives. And when our learners can meet their goals and unlock opportunity, whether that's the next rung or promotion at work, whether it's a good job with a living wage and with benefits that benefits the learner, their family, the many communities

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (08:10):They're serving. So how do we do that? We do that with flexibility. And I love hearing that you're talking to other leaders who are shedding the labels. Learners are learners. Wherever they are, you are absolutely write about that as are those other leaders. And everything else feels like someone has to take on an identity that they might not want to take on. What do you mean? Or I'm traditional. What does that even mean?

Shauna Cox (08:38):It's hard enough, especially as they're older to get in the door. And if you're putting all these labels on the door and they're like, well, where do I fit in? I don't want to associate myself with this. I just want to learn. We have to break down those barriers. And then leading into the idea of that people first approach, a learner's a learner, everybody's different. What makes a personalized learning experience essential to engage today's very diverse student population, especially when it's those adult learners, those first generation learners who are coming to the institution.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (09:12):Yeah. It's again, a really important topic for you and I to explore because we hear about personalized learning everywhere. Aren't you finding that Shauna, and I mean this started to ramp up. It's a very, I think, critical concept and is talked about all of the time, and I enjoy that it is. But again, personalized means person. So I start where the thread that we've had in this conversation, and that is to remind ourselves that it means that even at scale for a learning enterprise, SNHU is a university, we believe in personalizing the education. That starts with listen to your learners. That's how personalization starts in the very first contact. Let them tell you who they are, what their needs are, what their dreams are

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (10:07):This degree or bite of learning across or within their life and their hopes for their next chapter. And then be sure that we are developing a personalized network or constellation of support both academically and in student support services that helps the learner have what they need in the manner they need it, when they need it. That to me is what's so important and has been the success for learners at SNHU and for our university. So when you really break that down, what it means is using human connection and true conversation. And we have advisors, Shauna at SNHU, who serve as academic advisors, but in my mind, they're guides. They are human connectors. They are coaches for our learners who spend time getting to know their group of learners and advisors stay with a learner across their SHU experience so that relationship can grow and build and create trust and safe spaces where learners share what their needs are. And that's not always the case, right? When you're moving from around to advisor to advisor. It also, to me, personalization means using data, using data, using AI powered chatbots. We have a chatbot that the students named Penny, they personified Shauna, our chatbot. And Penny is low barrier entry

(11:56):For students who often will prefer communicating online with a chat bot that uses generative AI that learns as we interact with it to allow them to maybe be nudged to do certain tasks that can happen through portals. That is not the hard work that an advisor does, but is the hand

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (12:24):Of I have to get these tasks done. So I think flexible learning and personalization is all about focusing in on each and every learner. And the way to do that at scale is to be sure that you have the right ratios and number of humans and that you are using technology in a test and learn environment and scaling technologies that are proving they're helping us reach our outcomes.

Shauna Cox (12:54):And I love the blended approach that you have here. You are clearly embracing ai, the technology behind it, but you're very conscious of the human approach that is still needed. Humans are needed because there are some higher ed leaders out there who are in very fair points, scared of ai, scared of everything that's happening. And I think I'm very team AI all this technology. I

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (13:19):Am too. I am team ai.

Shauna Cox (13:21):

We'll justHave little badges, team ai. We should, I like it. I can see it as a sticker on my laptop and a badge for my sweatshirts. Exactly. We'll just

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (13:32):Merch. Let's do

Shauna Cox (13:33):It. Yeah. But I think what's important is embracing the innovation here, but also taking steps of caution and being aware of everything around you that's so critical. And the other part that you mentioned was the data component, which we're accessing so much data as time goes on. And I think a lot of issues that higher ed leaders are having are, well, what do we do with it? How do we leverage it? What's the next step? So in your view, how can data and technology be most effectively leveraged to, and this is just very one component that you can use data for, but reengage learners who left those college without completing a credential, who's maybe on the fence about coming back and just not sure if it's the right choice.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (14:25):Yeah, I think it's all about data and human connection. You're right. And data informs that. So there's so much to unpack here, Shauna. And if I'm throwing too much into our conversation, redirect me that data. We don't need data just for data's sake.

(14:42):So you're right. When you talk to leaders or colleagues who, and anyone given day, the amount of data that is available can be overwhelming. So my recommendation as I'm working with other leaders and my own team here is to say we have a plan. We have good strategy, we have a great strategic practice. We understand our accountability and obligation to meet outcomes with and on behalf of our learners. What data do we know would be helpful for us to make decisions that are learner-centric in addition to listening to the learners? So it really starts there and knowing that how do you develop data architecture that allows the technology systems, whether it's core tech stack or now being sure that the various platforms we use are able to interface with AI agents

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (15:38):We have determined like an AI tutor or other AI agents that would be helpful for us to do our work and for our learners to reach their potential. So that's what I mean about throwing a lot there. But it's not just data. So it is structuring the data. It's having systems that allow us to pull the data just in time. So I'll give a specific example so that advisors and faculty members have before them the information they need to know about a learner to best support success for that learner. What might that be? It may be we need information about a learner hasn't signed in. If it's an online learner, same would be true for a place-based learner. They're not coming to classes. That data can allow us then to use AI and technologies through chatbots to nudge a learner. And sometimes that's all we need. Think about busy, complex lives, just a warm nudge that says, how are you doing? I observe that you haven't turned something in or been able to post your discussion post. Creates an environment where someone could say, I got a lot going on right now.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (16:53):Then what other supports do they need? It's human.

Shauna Cox (16:56):Exactly. And it makes them feel supported. And I think that goes back to the validation of, oh my goodness, they're actually recognizing me as a human and they're looking for that support. They're reaching out to me. They're seeing what's up. You got it. They

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (17:09):Care. They care. And I do think when you have that data and you're using great tools and weaving it, listen, I don't want to come off as saying any of this is easy because colleges and universities, all the leaders I talk to, they wake up every day to do right with and by their learners and the people who work with them and they want to do better. And these are heavy lifts with data systems and how we use technology. So we just have to lean in and support one another because then the next phase is now I have this data, it's moving to these other locations. Do you have people who can help you have usable insights from data?

(17:50):So how do you translate what we're learning from data, which is quantitative and qualitative and help everyone across the organization understand trends that we're seeing? Understand where do we have the algorithms that help us determine what's happening to first generation students and SNHU, it's over 40% first generation students. So what do we know if someone shares that identity with us? What's likely to happen across the path and how do you intervene before? How are we responsive proactively as opposed to reactive to the learning journey for our students? So I'm team data for that. I also know that in the hand work of tasks using AI and other emerging technologies reduces manual interface with data and reduces errors. So we owe that to ourselves, to our employees and to our learners. So you could say I'm all in on the technology side now. I'm not an expert by any means, but I do Shauna spend part of every day working with generative ai, working with other pilots that we have at SNHU, because as the leader, I have to be agile with generative AI and technologies as I'm expecting our people to be.

Shauna Cox (19:20):Exactly. Well, and it's kind of setting, setting the tone and the expectation because obviously that is a big seat that you're sitting in, and if they're not seeing their leader progressive or into it, they won't be excited. Exactly. And it has that ripple effect. So as you mentioned, it's easier said than done. Easier said than done overnight,

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (19:44):Not overnight. And you need ethical policies and practices and everything that you spoke about earlier, colleges and universities, and we have to think about that. Where will this work? Where doesn't work? You also need to invest in training people. We had university-wide training for all of our staff on AI because you can't expect people to know how to use it if we aren't helping them understand ethical use cases, how to use it, providing tools, giving time so that individuals can experiment with it as well. And yet it's here and it's exciting and it won't work for every learner, for every journey, but we are embedding across our university.

Shauna Cox (20:31):I love to hear that. And so something like AI is very innovative and clearly you love innovation, not just, I

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (20:39):Love innovation and we do as a university. That's why I was excited. And we love innovation because innovation is about listening and learning. It's about the awesome honor, privilege, and responsibility of being the president at SNHU surrounded by, I mean I want to host you and have you meet just the talent, but the talent's all over the nation too. It's about unleashing curiosity and it's about saying that innovation, the best innovation at SNHU from its opening days was putting people first and listening at the core of everything we do. And it seems strange for me to tell you that's an innovation, but I'm not sure every place listens.

Shauna Cox (21:29):Exactly.

Shauna Cox (21:31):Listen. Exactly. Well, and it's truly the reason that we as people in the higher ed space, that's why we get up every day is for those people and they need to be put first. And going back to that innovation can't be done in a day. So what are some of those bigger challenges in scaling innovation across the higher ed sector to meet these constantly evolving needs of my favorite word, the modern learner.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (21:57):I love that. The modern learner. And you know what I'm thinking, Shana, is that as I follow you now and will follow you well into the future, I'm waiting. I'll wait for the time when modern changes and you'll say We're in the postmodern era, right? Exactly. What is that next? What is that next? Because using that word is so helpful for higher education because it pulls us out, it pulls us into today and also requires sort of a future casting or future forward mindset. So thank you for that word. I will attribute it to you. I think it's great, the modern learner. So let's get back to your question. Where do you really want to point me

Shauna Cox (22:40):Challenges in innovation and scaling innovation? What are some of the big hurdles that maybe you guys have faced or that you're seeing other higher ed leaders face as they try to meet the evolving?

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (22:50):Sure. Let's talk about innovation, which is great, but there are a lot of hurdles to it, and your question really puts that right at the center. First of all, I think it's being clear that innovation can be iterative, maybe small eye, and that sometimes I find that even taking the word out of the conversation and just saying, what are the goals and targets that we intended to meet this quarter? Are we on track or off track on behalf of our learners, does push innovation because it sets up an environment where people can iterate, they can make small changes to processes. And that's innovation too. It's more of that sort of a lean startup mentality where you are testing your assumptions

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (23:39):You're learning from those tests and then you're going back and recalibrating. And I think that's a practice part of being strategic in an organization.

(23:48):Larger innovations can present quite a few challenges. We're known for that at SNHU because we believe in people. Some challenges are how does one balance the investment? It doesn't always have to be wildly expensive, but it is true that the investment is both often financial and finding the resources and balancing that resource investment with what you believe will be the return for your learners or for any business model that someone has. It's also about balancing time and capacity. I find sometimes organizations get off track because they underestimate capacity that they have or talent that they have to drive an innovation. So just being sure that everybody in your organization has a sight line to the work and that the leaders have clear sense of capacity. You have to address that barrier. I think first there can be regulatory challenges. That certainly has been true over time for the development of online learning, higher education. It's important that we have regulations, but there can be regulatory challenges to innovation as well. Another challenge can be, I'm fortunate to share with you, it is not the case at Southern New Hampshire University at SHU, but a mindset challenge.

Shauna Cox (25:11):Yeah, that change management is always, it is a common theme among the higher leaders that I speak to. And some of them have been frank it or are breaking it, but change and change management. And that culture mindset is,

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (25:30):

It can be concerning because I talking about our places, the victories and successes of our learners telling the story of who they are, that is really important. But that and kind of marketing alone is never the answer. It is believing that innovation for me drives the following. The goal at SNHU is not to doggedly preserve a structure that we have. Obviously it's to abide by and comply with all regulations and applicable laws, but the goal isn't just like be the same every year. And the structure, the goal is to educate more people and to listen to them and to design learning that is relevant, that is helping them on the course of their life where more learners have success. That alone, when you remember that goal, it requires innovation.

Shauna Cox (26:36):I love that it

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (26:37):Requires innovation because if it didn't, we wouldn't have 40 million people with some college. No credential.

Shauna Cox (26:43):Exactly. And I feel like there are various buckets you can have people in higher ed in, and there are many, many people even high up on the scale of leaders who are saying, well, this is what we've done for 200 years and it's been working, so why change? Or let's only change this one section, or let's just have the CE division be the innovation. And that's okay. The fact that you are saying no

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (27:13):Holistically,

Shauna Cox (27:16):Get that old mindset out of here. I love hearing that, especially out of here, someone in your position, get it

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (27:21):At the door, get it out of there. And I'm constantly, if you have a chance to talk to my wonderful colleagues here, I'm constantly saying the goal of us as a team is are the right people in the room all the time. We have very diverse perspectives. You always make better, better decisions. Help me check my own blind spots. Additionally, is there any one of us who wants someone to plunk down on us a design from decades ago? Things are changing rapidly in the context of society and too many people, Shauna are left behind and education at SNHU. It is our mission and our mandate to be accessible, to be affordable, to understand the goals of each and every learner, to help them belong, to be seen every day, to build community in our face-to-face learning and in our online asynchronous learning. So my goal, every day a learner logs in to SHU and that person is seen. They know they matter. They know they are. They have skills, assets that they bring to their learning, and they know they can count on us

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (28:40):Time of day or night because maybe you are a recent graduate that we had David who lived in, who lives in the wilds of Alaska and the nearest college was a one and a half hour unaffordable plane ride away or a 24 hour snowmobile ride.

Shauna Cox (29:03):Oh my goodness.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (29:04):You are an adult learner whose dream always for yourself and your family was to have a college degree. An online learning allowed you to belong, to be part of a community and to walk across the stage at graduation, the first weekend of May, we had learners who were age 14 to 82, Shauna at our recent commencements. That is the story. Just those, that lifespan of flexible personalized learning.

Shauna Cox (29:36):That's amazing to hear. And I know that in removing these barriers and providing those flexible models and that support is, I would like to attribute it to, and correct me if I'm wrong, but attributing it to the awareness of always needing to adapt and getting it's first understanding your learners, who are they? What are their needs? And adapting and evolving your institutional model and strategy to meet those needs. But you're still always getting that feedback.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (30:10):Always. No, you're attributing it to absolutely the right design principles and also the ethic of care. And we're a university, I'm proud to say that is empathetic,

(30:26):So good listeners with a lot of empathy for the way that we do our work. And it is what leads us to adapt when we can and we have to practice this. I want to emphasize for anyone listening to our conversation, Shauna, that I wake up every day and understand that this isn't easy and it isn't easy when you're very scaled because you're as large scaled organizations, it requires that recommitment every day to an understanding of what is working and where we need improvements and to be willing to invest the people energy and capacity and resource capacity and energy to do better each and every day. We're restless is what I would say. And I want to be sure that I define that for you. We're restless at SNHU because we know more people need access to meaningful, affordable, higher education throughout their entire lifetime. You don't get one credential and have it done. And in order for us to do that, we have to every day look in the mirror what's working today and celebrate those wins and how can we do better?

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (31:38):And it's just a joy to work at a place that celebrates the successes but does not rest on laurels.

Shauna Cox (31:46):Absolutely. And I think it's really important. There may be some leaders listening who are like, well, it's easier said than done if you are in the right financial position or if you have enough resources. But I think, yes, we acknowledge that there are those challenges of resource allocation. That is a huge, huge challenge today. But I think when you strip it all back and you just get down to the mission, you can make those small steps as you can with what you have to meet the needs of the learners at your institution.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (32:18):That's the story of SNHU. That is the story of SNHU. And to get here on this journey, though I haven't been here for my entire career, I know obviously the journey of SNHU, but other organizations that I've served, it is looking with an open mind at what are we doing today that we maybe don't need to be doing that we didn't design with keen listening or with a learner at the center. Sometimes we have more resources than we think when we are open to stopping some things. And that can be tricky, but just that commitment to the resources flow to the greatest needs of our learners, it's just it will be ever more important in society because students are telling us, I mean, you've talked about it and written about it, people find value in learning. So there's this big public debate. We all know that learning is important for us always. It's the power of it. It gives us purposeful lives. It hasn't been accessible to everyone. It needs to be more accessible and affordable, but individuals need it. Communities need it, the workforce needs it. It's always going to be there. It always needs be there. It'll always be there. And if it isn't, we're inherently curious as humans. And we crave connection.

Shauna Cox (33:48):Exactly.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (33:49):And the best learning designs address both.

Shauna Cox (33:53):I love that. Well, in our conversation towards the beginning of it, we talked about this forward thinking mindset. So I want to ask you my crystal ball question of what emerging trends do you believe are going to be most significantly influencing that future of lifelong learning and say maybe the next five to 10 years?

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (34:15):Yeah. Oh, there are so many, but I'll share a few with you and then I'd love Shauna to get, as we have throughout the conversation, your point of view. Definitely the speed with which technologies are emerging. In particular, AI is a trend. And the reason why I say that is I think it allows learning. It will eventually allow learning to be ever more accessible to more people. And if we get it right, we use AI in the right place in learning, and it will power, I think access. I think it will power access. So definitely ai. The other trend powering learning is the rapid pace with which, excuse me, those vary. AI and other technologies are changing the workforce. And so a conversation which has gone on always, but is gathering steam for very good reason right now is how do we have learning that also embeds in the competencies and the skills that the workforce needs

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (35:22):In-demand jobs. And so that is a trend that will influence higher education and learning, because that requires that as institutions, we look at who are our learners and where are they living and working, and what will the opportunities be for them and how do we shape learning that truly unlocks those opportunities going forward. So I think that is a trend. The other trend is that, and I worked for a RP, so I worked with older adults who were living with low income for a good part of my career and reconfirmed my work in social determinants of health and in workforce training and in education. And a good thing is that in fact, demographics have shifted. I'm sure you talked to leaders and we can't be surprised by this. We've known this, but aging is great. We all hope for it.

(36:18):We hope that we live longer lives and we hope it that we benefit from the longevity bonus going forward. And so the reason why I say that's a trend is I see it as a positive trend. And it does mean that individuals will both want to in some cases and need to for other individuals, work longer across their life course in a variety of roles. And we have to be prepared as universities to welcome learners in and out across their lifetime through flexible pathways that gives them the learning kind of just in time and the modality that works for them, where they're at the center that provides them with the verifiable skills that help them continue to have good jobs, good jobs, as I said, with family sustaining wages and benefits and allow them to contribute in ways that are meaningful for them to live lives of purpose and also that provide financial security

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (37:20):Stability for them and for communities across our nation. Another, if not a trend, I guess it is a trend, and I don't think it's widespread, but it has loud noise, is the current conversation that we spoke together about earlier, about the value of learning and could we come together. What's curious about that too is how many people have been educated and benefited from learning who are involved in the Dialogue.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (37:51):I just remind myself of that. But I do know what's important is we come together as a society and say, more learning is always better. Effective learning with evidence-based outcomes is always better, including more people in the opportunity to learn and unlock their passions, have their dreams be heard and recognized and unlock opportunity will always be better. And let's just come together and have that conversation instead of debating whether or not higher education is valuable.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (38:26):Do better. We know better. We do better.

Shauna Cox (38:28):Exactly. Well, in terms of this influence of the future of lifelong earning and stuff, I'm just going to say, you stole all my answers.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (38:40):This is the thing. I have been so grateful for your flexibility at this time of commencement for me, but I knew just in hearing your podcast and following you and your work, that it would be powerful to talk together. Can we agree? We will talk together more frequently?

Shauna Cox (38:56):Absolutely. We are going to be peas in a pod when it comes to higher ed.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (39:00):I think we already are. We are.

Shauna Cox (39:03):So my take on this without trying to be as repetitive, I don't want to repeat all the things that you said, but really from my conversations and how I'm seeing everything shift, especially, I've only been in the higher ed space for six years, so I haven't been here for the whole transition or the more old structures, old models that I'm kind of more on the innovative side, which is fantastic to see. But I've certainly in six years have seen quite a shift from the pandemic. And so what I'm really seeing is the whole institution starting to shift towards a more lifelong learning model, moving faster than others. Some departments are more on board than others, but I'm starting to really, I think before there was really black and white lines, and now we're kind of moving into a gray space of who's offering credentials and how that's managed. I think what's really important is the institution as a whole adapting their processes and those administrative tasks and stuff to be more efficient. And I think it's really important to get to that foundation to adapt those processes, be a little bit more of consolidated administration so that you're getting those tasks that I know that you mentioned previously, getting those things out of the way, automating them, making those efficiencies.

(40:26):So then we can work collaboratively on the mission and the goal of the institution to personalize these learner journeys. Because quite honestly, there are more learners starting to come in with very different needs. They need a lot more attention and different strategies. So I think there's a lot more effort that's going to be needed to be put into meet these evolving needs of these very different learners that are coming in. So let's take those processes, let's get some efficiency underway so that we can meet the needs of the learners that we've always been. There are not, everything's getting thrown out the window, but not at all. Not at all. Structures are still staying. Let's automate those processes. Let's get everything under the way. That way we can focus on what we all wake up to do is meet the needs of those learners. So that's how I'm personally seeing it shift.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (41:19):You are very expert within your six years, and I think it's, what I observe in our conversation is that you're scanning all the data, you're qualitative and quantitative and using those tools and looking at the landscape. So you've just, Shauna in this dialogue walked another principle, a careful listening and always scan the landscape.

Shauna Cox (41:46):I'm very what you've

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (41:48):Done, scan the landscape, be curious about it

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (41:51):See what's happening. And you're absolutely right. Everything doesn't have to be, there will always be a need for a variety of models and modalities, but learners may have more needs today and they've always had these needs and we haven't listened carefully enough. And that is why there are so many learners with some college and no credential. And life is challenging and recognizing that people across their life will come in and out of learning and adapting our processes through automation, what we teach and how we teach it to meet that flow. And flexibility is a winning proposition for people, for humanity and for universities, I believe.

Shauna Cox (42:51):Mic drop it. Amazing. Well, Lisa, those are all the questions I have for you. Oh, before I let you go, I have to ask a very important question around food. You are based in Manchester, New Hampshire. If someone's coming to town, where do they need to go to eat?

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (43:10):And this is no grade inflation, I have to do just one, not two.

Shauna Cox (43:13):You could throw in through. We've had people throw in two or three because it is

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (43:17):Very hard. I will tell you, there are so many places. So what I want every listener to know is come to Manchester and gosh, I'd love to meet you and have you learn more about SNHU. It's a real foodie place. And I don't know if when people think about Manchester New Hampshire, that is what they would think about. But there are restaurants for everyone and food from every ethnic background, and it's just great. Two of my most favorite are Industry East, which is a really small place that has just great food, great vibe, good cocktails. And another favorite for me is the Crown. And I'll tell you that is a favorite because the Crown in Manchester, New Hampshire has a really great menu and fabulous hot honey pizza, and it is a thing that I'm into right now. So head to the Crown again. Great environment, great pizza, great menu.

Shauna Cox (44:19):Amazing.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (44:19):Way more than pizza there. But that's my current favorite. On the menu, there's salads in their pizza.

Shauna Cox (44:24):Amazing. I love it.

Shauna Cox (45:08):

Thank you so much.

Lisa Marsh Ryerson (45:08):

Great.