Angela Kersenbrock (Community College Baccalaureate Association) on The New BA, Powered by Community Colleges

On today’s episode of the Illumination by Modern Campus podcast, podcast host Shauna Cox was joined by Angela Kersenbrock to discuss how community colleges are changing access and affordability in higher ed, and the workforce alignment required for everyone to succeed. 

Transcript

Shauna Cox (00:12):Angela, welcome back to the Illumination Podcast.

Angela Kersenbrock (00:15):Shauna, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for inviting me again.

Shauna Cox (00:18):Absolutely. We know that this is your favorite subject, so we are here to talk about how community bachelor's degrees are really redefining access and equity in higher ed. So I want to kick off our conversation and first ask, how do community college bachelor degrees challenge that traditional narrative of higher ed access and affordability?

Angela Kersenbrock (00:40):Okay, well, first of all, thank you very much for inviting me back. And yes, it is my favorite subject, so always happy to talk about that. Shauna, I don't know if you know just the national scope. So there's 24 states offering community college, and we are weeks away from the 25th state. So cross your fingers. It looks like Illinois is going to happen. So I think that that is really something.

(01:06):And then there are more than now, 737 different community college baccalaureate programs across the country. So what that is all about is access and opportunity. Governor Newsom, he's the governor of California, very liberal, very forward thinking. One of the things he says is that people have to have the freedom to pursue higher education. And I think the whole CCB challenges this freedom to pursue because without access, it really is no opportunity and without the opportunity, there's not access. But what we mean by that is when we say access an opportunity, it's got to be 50 miles or less, maybe 60 miles. Okay? You can't expect students to drive 200 miles after work. It also means that it's got to be affordable and by affordable, we're talking about a program where a student does not have to take out student debt. So I think that that is really important.

(02:16):So many students shy away from going into a bachelor's program because they're concerned about student debt. So I think it has to have those two components. The other component is that the program has to be offered in a way that's accessible for an adult working learner. I mean, if the courses are offered Monday, Tuesday, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, nine o'clock, that doesn't work for adults at all. I mean, we're adults. The idea of taking time off during the day to go to a class is impossible. And so access is also defined as having enough different methods of delivery that make it possible for the students that you're trying to bring in, make it possible for them to attend. So I think when we're talking about access anymore, we've got to change how we think about that. Here's an example. In downtown Chicago, there's universities all around, I think it's Malcolm X Community College, but if all of those colleges are privates or private nonprofits and the students at Malcolm X can't afford that,

Angela Kersenbrock (03:31):They have no opportunity. You may say, well, there's access. They could drive 20 miles, but there is no access, there is no opportunity. So we're just changing the way we look at that from it being a true system that creates opportunity.

Shauna Cox (03:51):Absolutely, and I think many of these students, correct me if I'm wrong, but many of them would be the non-traditional adult learner who are pursuing these types of programs and degrees. So oftentimes they're attending these programs or taking these programs because they want to upskill reskill better their lives and their families by getting these jobs. So in your view, how do these bachelor's programs at community colleges redefine career pathways for the adult learners and then also for those first generation students who are coming in this completely blind?

Angela Kersenbrock (04:26):Yeah, so I think you brought up so many really good points. Number one, the average age of the community, college baccalaureate students, 31, and we say they're otherwise engaged.

(04:39):They've got kids, they've got a job, they've got car payments. They may have parents that they're taking care of first time in college. If many of the students who are from underserved populations or immigrant families, that family is really a priority. And so you can't say, well, you can't take care of mom and dad or attend family functions while you're doing this. That just doesn't work with those students. So I think we need to make it accessible. And then cost is another major factor. I don't know if you, California, Texas and Florida are offering degrees at a $10,000. California are a little bit higher, 10,560, but California and Texas $10,000 for the entire four years.

(05:26):So that really does make it accessible. When you talk about pathways to the workforce, every one of these degrees is a pathway to industry and career and family sustaining wages. Every degree is built hand in hand with the industries that they're creating these programs for. So you can't start a community college baccalaureate unless you can prove that there is significant labor that is not being filled so that there's a labor gap. And then the faculty work with the industry partners to make sure that those degrees fit the needs of industry and also fit the needs of a student who wants to continue to advance. So it lays the foundation for this is how you think about work. This is how you learn. This is how you continue to better yourself. This is how you develop. So I think that is one way of answering the questions that these are built so that students can go out and get really good jobs.

Shauna Cox (06:36):Absolutely. We talked about the challenges that the typical student will face when they're trying to pursue higher education, but I think on the flip side, there's also challenges that faculty in the overall institution face. So what systematic systemic barriers still exist for community colleges trying to expand into those four year degree offerings and what policy shifts are kind of needed to overcome them?

Angela Kersenbrock (07:04):So we've got on our website, 20 frequently asked questions that look at some of these, and then we've got another document that's the 10 MITs, the big mitts. I think one of the biggest challenges to community colleges starting baccalaureate degrees, the state and regional universities,

(07:25):And I understand where they're coming from. You can understand if somebody's going to move in across the street, what are your concerns? I think a major concern is you're going to siphon off my students, and that's going to hurt my enrollment. And in this point of time in history in the United States, higher ed is a bit under attack for its value. Is it worth it? We've got some other things happening too. So the universities are rightly concerned, but here's a fact. The fact is that these students at 31, they are not the student's who's saying, no, should I go to the university full time and live on campus and do all these things? That's not who we are after at all. The other thing is community college baccalaureates are not, and the association, we are not thinking that we should be in competition with the universities. I think we have some of the best universities in the country, and we need them,

(08:33):But we also need them to understand facts that the student is not coming to them and this is not going to hurt their enrollment. We saw that in, we see it in Washington and we see it in Florida, that it's never hurt those enrollments in Florida. So I think that that's an important thing. But so that's one thing. The other is mission creep. Some folks will say, you need to stay in your lane. Well, the lanes have changed since when community colleges started. The workforce has changed since community colleges have started. And so we have got to continue to evolve to be relevant, to continue to be that workforce engine in a community. So now hospitals are saying, we want bachelor of science in nursing. We want Bachelor of science and respiratory care, criminal justice. I think personally, the days of being a police officer in 15, 16 weeks without a degree are gone.

(09:36):This world is much too complex for that. And so I think people need to be given the opportunity to get an education that helps prepare them for what's happening in industry now. And so I think that that's another important thing, the mission creep. The other is, oh, your faculty aren't qualified. We hear this. Oh, your faculty aren't qualified. And I say, well, wait a second. Our faculty have the same credentials that you do and they've got industry experience and we really value that. That's a cool value for us that they have worked in industry and they know what it really means to be doing that. And the other thing that I, and chuckle with my university friends, I say, well, you're saying our faculty on qualified, yet you've hired all of my faculty to be adjunct faculty for you. So now which one is it? But I think later on you were going to ask about how does the higher ed ecosystem change? And I mean, I can speak a little bit to that. Now

(10:43):We need to make it so that the universities aren't worried about this. If they're going to take that leap of faith with the community college and the community, we can't do anything that penalizes the university. We can't make it hotter for them. We've got to make it so that it's a win-win for them as well. And I had a president who's always talking about win-wins, Angela, what are you going to do to make this a win-win? And even if I might've been annoyed at that, she was always right, because you never want to have a partner that loses, and we don't want the universities to lose. So how can this entire higher ed system or in Illinois, that system or in California, that system or wherever, how can we work together so the university doesn't lose? If the university takes that chance? Can we hold them homeless for funding? Can we do something like that? Can we build our degree, our community college so that the last two courses are their first two courses in a master's program and help push them through to a master's degree that there's a longer view, and I hear this from so many of the students that we talked to are going to cbs, they say, and I'll paraphrase, they say something like, I'm doing this degree with you so that my children can go to the university.

(12:12):And so the university will win there, but it's a bit, it's going to take a while. And that's why we need to make sure that the university is not threatened by this, that they say this in a partnership and that partnership is to move everybody in the community up.

Shauna Cox (12:34):Absolutely. And as I'm speaking with higher ed leaders from across the institution, various levels and everything like that, I really do see us starting to move towards a much more collaborative ecosystem where if it's competition, it's healthy competition. You have your very specific group set of student demographics, and we have ours. And I think that if someone is coming to higher ed, they're not coming just for, typically they're not coming just for two or four years or a couple of weeks. There is an ongoing life cycle that continues to happen. People are going to need to continue to upskill reskill, and if they're starting off in a community college and then want to end up going into that stackable credential that leads into a master's or anything like that, then there is that ability. So I think focusing on that collaborative ecosystem and sharing your learners as your different fit them where they need to be fit at the time,

Shauna Cox (13:36):I think that's really important.

Angela Kersenbrock (13:37):But there's a lot of states now that are looking at a performance funding. And if a university goes into this and says to the community college, okay, we'll do this with you, we will allow you, we'll support you if you're going to do that. Bachelor's in nursing, the university can't lose enrollments either. So we've got to figure that out because that's not a good thing either for that university. But at the same time, community college is a lot more flexible. We're used to offering courses with the idea of let's fit the courses around when the student can come, not when the faculty is available. And just because it's a totally different mindset. The mindset isn't research, the mindset is what happens in that classroom. And so I think that's really valuable. What works for that student, for that adult learner.

Shauna Cox (14:39):Absolutely. And I will skip to the last question because we're on this theme. We're on the topic of it. I'll skip to the last one, but I do still want to ask the other one, so I'll ask that at the end. So looking ahead, what would an ideal ecosystem look like if there were more states right now you said there's 24, almost 25, but what would that look like if more states embrace that community college baccalaureate model?

Angela Kersenbrock (15:05):Well, because in my mind, it would be all 50 states have community college s, but I think that should be only if there are labor market gaps, only if there are gaps in certain populations that don't have true access and opportunity. So only if the student really needs it. And then for the system to work together so that people, we don't lose that a university is not penalized. I think that's really important. The community college is not penalized. So I think it has to be, it's more of an open door, closed door now. And I think instead of that, it needs to be like all the windows are open and students are flowing back and forth. Why can't a university and a community college write a degree together? And the university teaches some of those courses, maybe teaches the last year or so, and the community college teaches the first three years. Why can't those things happen? And then both benefit if a state is looking at performance funding. I mean, I think those are some of the ideas, but I think any ecosystem that doesn't serve all the populations that doesn't have a place, doesn't make a place of the table for everybody has got to be changed.

(16:33):And I get the university model, their funding models may not allow that, but the community college model allows for change to occur very rapidly. And so I think we need to embrace that. And we recognize the community. College of Laure is not for everybody. It's not for that 18-year-old who wants that campus experience and wants to be at a university and wants to be in big classrooms and games and all of that, and wants to be with a faculty member that are doing research and all that. Then the community college is not for that student. So there are a lot of models out there. You've got the national university, you've got WGU Lynn, Mississippi State that are offering really creative models for students to get bachelor's to doctorates. We are going to have a problem with not enough faculty. I mean, we already have that now in nursing, teacher ed, some other fields, but we've got to create a system where we're generating and growing faculty. I think that that is very helpful and then valuing each other. But I think when we pit each other against each other and the wedge is money, we won't win. None of us will win on that.

Shauna Cox (18:01):Yeah, absolutely. I think going back to the competition or the potential learners that someone may be stealing, there are millions of people out there. There's already over 40 million adults with some college, no degree. Everybody's different. It's not a one size fits all. Everybody has their own needs, their own circumstances, their own situations, and there are enough people out there to share amongst the community, colleges, universities, everything like that. I think when you really get down to who you serve and who those students are, that there are a lot of them out there, and they all need different models that your institution may or may not be able to offer.

Angela Kersenbrock (18:48):But I think for the universities that 18-year-old, at least in the United States, the number of students graduating from high school is declining. And so that gives them pause for concern. And so how do they make themselves more available, more attractive to this adult. 

Angela Kersenbrock (19:08):And I think community colleges have a deep experience in working with adult learners, adult working learners, and maybe we could learn from each other. So I think that those would be some good steps.

Shauna Cox (19:21):Absolutely. At the end of the day, I think collaboration is certainly key. And again, at the other end of the day is that we're coming back to the student. And throughout this conversation we've been talking about access and equity, which is so, so key. So how are institutions using technology to support the success of students in these community college baccalaureate programs all the way from enrollment to graduation and to their employment?

Angela Kersenbrock (19:49):Yeah, I'm really tickled with the products that are out there now. I think it makes it so much easier. So first of all, light cast. We use light cast data to help a college decide which program to start. And I think that's really important. You have to start there. Where is there a documented labor gap? So I think that that is really important. And then what are the skills that the industries need?

Angela Kersenbrock (20:21): But then once you get into it, this idea of a tutoring center, that's a lovely idea for the student who's on campus all the time. That's not a lovely idea for the mom with three kids who's working all day. So Brain Fuse online tutoring, brain Fuse is a great partner and they have a great little tagline. Something like the tutoring center should not be a luxury. That should be a right. And every student should have access to 24 7 tutoring. When I worked seven in the morning to seven at night, I needed tutoring at night.

(21:13):So that's one thing. Textbooks. Here's something that I find I found very surprising. I was in a nursing classroom and I asked first day one, how many students have your textbooks? 30%. 30% have their textbooks. How many are going to get them this week? Maybe another 10%. So you have 50, 60% of your students who don't have their books and maybe won't be getting them for a while. One of the things we used to do is in the olden days when it was just books, is to put those books in the library. So the students who couldn't afford the books would go to the library and read, well, now the library closes at nine, so that doesn't work. So companies that Biblio uses, which is day one, you have access to everything you need is changing so much. The opportunity for a student. Those nursing books, have you ever seen one of those things?

Shauna Cox (22:18):Yeah, I don't even want to know the cost of them. I can't imagine how much

Angela Kersenbrock (22:23):Last cost that I know is like $280, but I think that's he is, it's this thick, it's like four inches thick. You can't hardly carry the DON thing. So to have that online and you could get it day one is just really opens up opportunity. So I'm so tickled with what some of these companies are doing, the technologies that they're offering, online learning. Here's something. So one of an acquaintance of Oz did Tim Harmon, he did a study of the California universities and their online courses, the modes and modalities there were offering courses. Well, during covid, everybody went to online learning. And believe it or not, that's a silver lining for adult students, right? Because now I can do my work.

(23:19):Well, what are we six years past covid? And now it's only like 10% of their courses are online or hybrid. And so that's taken away. But some of these companies that offer online learning desire to learn, they are making it possible for people who would not have been possible before to go to college and to be successful. And then the technologies to show the dashboards to say, Angela has only been on this course for two hours in a week, Shauna, who's getting an A has been in there eight hours. So for the faculty member to know that and to call me and say, Angela, what's going on? How can we help you? What can we do to help you be successful? So those things make it so much easier, I think, for colleges, and there's so many other products out there that are making it easier for students.

Shauna Cox (24:23):Absolutely. Well, Angela, those are all the questions I have for you. Is there anything else that you'd like to add that I maybe missed about where you see the baccalaureate going in community colleges? Any collaboration, anything that you want to add?

Angela Kersenbrock (24:39):I think one of the things we're seeing that's happening is a three-year degree, the under 120 credits as an innovation to see how that works. So I think that that's important. And I get on a soapbox about this, so I'll just take this opportunity. I think it's disingenuous when people say, particularly people who should know better say not everybody needs a college degree. Well, yeah, that's true. I know Bill Gates in his garage or whomever in their garage made multimillion dollars, but maybe that's not going to be everybody. Yeah, okay. And so oftentimes when I hear people say, well, not everybody needs a college degree. They're not all that cracked up to be. What I hear them saying is, my kid is going to get a college degree, but maybe you and your kid don't need that. I think that that's, it's just not doing a good service for our country in the world. Let people decide for themselves, but make it so that they can happen. Because honestly, we really need everybody on this bus to be a productive fair society.

Shauna Cox (25:49):Absolutely. And I think in that, I'm just going to add that I think in that there has been this long-term, long-term stereotype of what a college student looked like, a community college student, a college student, a university student, what they all look like and where they could end up. And there are so many students who, or potential students who just don't, they're like, well, I don't see myself there. So I think as higher ed leaders are starting to pick up on, at least from a lot of the conversations that I have on the evolution is that you have to make it one accessible and equitable for everyone, but also show them them at that institution, show them those pathways, show them the opportunity. There is one traditional path that people have taken for decades, but that's not the case anymore. There are many different avenues. I think it's just really trying to remove that pressure of like, well, if you go, here's what you should expect. This is what you're expected to do. And I think that there's a lot less intimidation coming out of these institutions as they're really looking at that student experience and what it looks like for that non-traditional or modern number.

Angela Kersenbrock (27:04):I think we believe, we out there believe that the college is built, the schedules is set, and then you fit in. And I think so many colleges have turned that around and turn that on its head universities as well as community colleges, so that it's Tell us what you need and we're going to build it that way. You want to take one course every seven weeks. You want to take five courses for the semester, whatever those are. I think the colleges have moved away from we're building it for us, and you try to fit in rather than we're building it for you. Tell us if this fits,

Shauna Cox (27:52):Tell us what we need to move. What do we need to adjust? We're going to move those Lego blocks. So yes, absolutely. Well, Angela, again, thank you so much for coming on and having this conversation with me and sharing your insights. I really do appreciate it.

Angela Kersenbrock (28:06):Well, good. And Shauna, thank you very much. And I hope to see you maybe in Montreal, and I know Toronto's such a beautiful city too.

Shauna Cox (28:16):Yeah, absolutely.