Amelia Parnell (NASPA) on Reimagining the Learning Journey Through Student Affairs

On today’s episode of the Illumination by Modern Campus podcast, podcast host Shauna Cox was joined by Amelia Parnell to discuss the critical shift towards intentional learning and the need for institutions to create more collaborative environments to better support learners. 

Transcript

Voiceover: Welcome to Illumination by Modern Campus, the leading podcast focused on transformation and change in the higher education space. On today’s episode, we speak with Amelia Parnell, who is President and CEO of NASPA. Amelia and podcast host Shauna Cox discuss the critical shift towards intentional learning and the need for institutions to create more collaborative environments to better support learners. 

Shauna Cox (00:02):Amelia, welcome to the Illumination podcast. I'm so glad that you could be joining me today.

Amelia Parnell (00:07):Thank you very much for the invitation.

Shauna Cox (00:09):Absolutely. So we're here to dive into an essential conversation about helping students connect the dots in their learning journey. So I want to kick off our conversation and ask you, how are you seeing today's students evolve and how they're connecting their learning to their personal development and their career goals?

Amelia Parnell: When we're thinking about the evolution of students framing of their college experience, I can see maybe not so much of the premise of why students go to college changing, but I can see the urgency and the nature of them wanting to be proactive with figuring out what their overall return on that investment of time and money might be. So whereas in the days of old, we might have said that the best time for someone to start thinking about what's after college will be third year, fourth year. I think many learners are coming in within the first year, first semester even thinking, okay, why do I want to choose these particular majors classes that I'm taking? How does that connect to my larger goals of what I want to learn from my own personal development and career goals as you named?

(03:25):So I think that's going to create more opportunities for professionals to help them to do that. And I see the proliferation of learning records that are newer, such as e-portfolios and digital badges and co-curricular transcripts being instruments that we can use to help students not only think about how to connect their learning, but actually put it into practice. And so I feel like the evolution is not just for the students actually, it's an evolution of how campuses support them and professionals in their coaching and advising and shepherding that process to help students feel like they got a great return on that very expensive investment.

Shauna Cox (03:58):And the role of the departments in that coaching and advising I think is such a critical role and dovetails so beautifully into the next question. So what role does the student affairs department play in promoting that more holistic learning and development?

Amelia Parnell (04:14):I could see several things that they do, and I certainly wouldn't suggest that they're the only ones who do this. But since I work at NASPA and it's primarily student affairs that I'm focused on, I can think of several things. So number one, there are lots of learning opportunities that happen outside the classroom. So when we think student affairs, we primarily think about the experiences that students have when they're not in the classroom, and whether that be clubs and activities or study abroad or other cultural immersion experiences, service learning, internships, all of those places and more provide opportunities for students to learn. And so they pick up those same 21st century skills that we talk about all the time. So critical thinking and problem solving and all those things. So the first way I think student affairs connects to a holistic learning and development process is that we actually provide opportunities for learning.

(04:58):I think the second is that to my first answer, we are getting more into a space of helping students actually capture those skills and abilities. So it's not enough to just say, well, I'm a pretty good problem solver. I think that we're in a place where we can actually ask students to keep some copies of things they've worked on or provide examples that are tangible. They can actually connect those experiences to tangible learning outcomes. And so with that in mind, the third is that we have some evolving frameworks of how we would actually measure that. So I like to make the distinction between exposure. So if you and I were to sit and have a conversation moderated by someone to help us think through all the biggest issues in higher education, and it was for one hour, I would say we were exposed to some new learning, but I wouldn't say we left that one hour conversation with deep understanding.

(05:42):But it's worth noting that we were exposed to it. I would say integration would be the next phase, which is where maybe we get together once a month, but we do it for three months. And so we've been immersed a little bit more frequently, but I still wouldn't say that we have the same level of deep knowledge and learning that some others would. But when it gets to something like transformation, maybe we've been meeting once a week for three semesters, four semesters, five semesters. Now we have enough there that we can actually put into a framework and measure the extent to which learning happens. And so whether we're talking about exposure or immigration or transformation, there's I think more opportunity for student affairs professionals to be intentional about measuring and capturing that learning when it happens. And then the fourth way, I guess I do have several opportunities.

(06:24):The fourth way is truly connected to the nature of what student affairs professionals, especially those in advising do, which is to counsel students about how they can connect all these dots. And so whether it be for someone who's trying to get into graduate school or pursue a particular work opportunity, there are going to be times and places where students say, let's talk through my plans. And that's a great opportunity to say, Hey, you do realize that all of what you've been doing, it's a holistic approach and you've been learning a lot along the way. Let me show you and help you figure out how you can curate your own story. So lots of things that student affairs does.

Shauna Cox (06:56):Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of hats that they wear and things like that. I want to touch on the point that you mentioned when you talked about the integration component because depending on the institution that you're at, the whole integration, collaboration can be a sticky subject again, depending on where you're at. Some institutions are just known to be very separated, siloed departments are doing their own thing, things like that. And there are some that have a little bit more cohesion and collaboration and things like that. So personally, not to be biased is that I think collaboration is the key here and we need to start breaking down those silos and coming together. So how can institutions start breaking down those silos to create, back to your point, that more integrated learning ecosystem for these students?

Amelia Parnell (07:51):I think I've heard many colleagues tell me that I oftentimes use an analogy at a time that might break something that seems complex and make it simple. I hope this one works because just kind of came to mind as you described it, and I'll go ahead and acknowledge that I too think the collaboration is the way to go. But having had experience teaching, I do know of the benefits sometimes of having some clear paths and lanes for each colleague to move within. So I'm not at a place where I'm ready to say it's one single plan and everybody does everything because when everybody does everything the, it's hard to coordinate around that. But I can also say the reason why I'm leaning more in the space of collaboration is because so many separate vertical lanes makes it really hard to navigate if you're the learner that's supposed to go across all those different silos.

(08:35):So I like to maybe use the analogy of putting together a really great dining experience. And so the idea that maybe you and I are seeking a really great meal and there are a number of places that we can go rather than have, let's say one building with three or four restaurants within that might have similar menus. What if those restaurants got together every so often, not as their new premise, but every so often and did a buffet and maybe a joint collaborative meal delivery type thing. So that way you get a little bit of everything, all of which are healthy options, all of which give me more opportunities to choose from. And those particular groups have a chance to plan together. So rather than have me trying to figure out between which of the four rooms I want to go into every so often when it's appropriate, I can move across the full display of what's available.

(09:23):And I have now even more coordinated effort to make sure that the dietary needs that I'm looking to address are thought of proactively. So I say that because I really do think that collaboration looks like partnership. And the reason I use the example of the buffet is that we all have something to offer. It's not to suggest, and I'll use probably the most frequently discussed partnership, academic affairs and student affairs. I don't know that we could ever get to a place where we're looking for student affairs to transform and deliver whole curricula on a particular major study. Nor could I picture a scenario in which faculty are now being asked to deliver a whole suite of holistic student support services. That was never the goal for either. There are two different purposes, but I can see places where engagement, often the way we describe it in student affairs happens in the classroom, and I can see opportunities where learning, deep learning and development of skills and abilities happens outside the classroom.

(10:13):It already is. And so collaboration and partnership means being intentional about carving out space for those conversations to happen so that you can kind of co-create and co-design a place so that when students are moving between one room or the next or one classroom to out of classroom experience to the next, it feels like it was designed for them to be at the center. And so I feel like that's a nice bow that I just put on that box and make it sound really good. But I'm trying to think. When it comes to breaking down silos, you start with the end in mind. So when I made the example of the analogy, it was to say, what if we want to have a really great meal, I replace the meal. What if we want to have a really great centralized, holistic learning experience that at times works across existing silos, but feels very smooth and easy to navigate to the students?

(10:59):So I think to be honest, some of those things requires a little bit more of a changing of the culture of collaboration. And I'll speak about it from maybe a positive and maybe a place of opportunity. The positive is that we do a pretty good job of sharing what's working and maybe probably to the place where it creates a little competition about which areas of the campus have the most impact. So we don't have any shortage of people wanting to say, let me show you what works and you need that. I think we need examples that show that the efforts that we're putting in are actually returning something beneficial to the student. But I don't think we do as good a job sometimes as acknowledging that some things are work in progress, that maybe we have some big aspirations for how we want that meal to go or that student-centered approach to go and they're not quite working. Sometimes being honest about some of the sticking points creates a space for collaboration to say, Hey, maybe you haven't quite figured it out, but in our area, we've seen something like that. Let me help you. And so I think being a little honest about places where we need more work to be done gives more space for opportunity and collaborative type engagement so that we can create some solutions together as opposed to keeping our respective successes and problems in the silos. I think we got to be open and transparent about both.

Shauna Cox (12:06):And I love the idea of you saying that to have that end goal in mind, because when you have that end goal, everybody already has their dedicated lanes, they know where their starting points are. So when you're starting from the, if you're the end and working your way forward, that's when you can kind of see where the paths do cross and lead up to where people have their expertise in leveraging that. I think. And I also think competition, healthy competition is always good, and it helps inspire and motivate people to keep going. And then I know we're a higher ed podcast, but that whole idea of the buffet and almost like a fusion thing, look, if you're a restaurant out there, just please do it. That sounds so great to have. I would love a buffet with local restaurants every once in a while. That

Amelia Parnell (12:50):Would be really cool.

Shauna Cox (12:51):Exactly. But going back to higher ed, there of course are some internal partners and across departments and things like that, but there are also the external partners, the employers and things, the employer. So how can higher ed partner with other industries to help students connect those learnings with those real world applications? I know earlier you were mentioning helping them connect the dots, and sometimes students don't realize what's in front of them. So how can we get those external partners into that to help those students connect as well?

Amelia Parnell (13:25):Yeah. Maybe I'll do a play on both the word partner and industry. So I think I got some suggestions that might go across both. So individual and then kind of industry organization wise. I think I want to come back to the first point when you mentioned external and just remind listeners that higher education is an employer, and so their tremendous opportunities for campuses to actually provide work opportunities to students before they graduate. Now, I think the longest standing and most notable example is federal work study, but there are a number of campuses who have on-campus job opportunities that students can be a part of for multiple semesters, and it helps them pick up the same type of skills and abilities that they would have if they went off campus for an internship, something like that. So I would say for anybody listening that hasn't really explored that yet, I think that that's a really good opportunity to kind of cultivate this idea that there's obviously a pathway after college that might lead to work, but we as higher education the industry, we are employers as well.

(14:22):So I don't want to miss an opportunity there. The second is, of course, the obvious that some would be thinking would be any organizations, companies that recruit from campuses that are part of local workforce boards. If you're talking about a community college, I think there are all kinds of opportunities for those types of partners, those organizations, to give back feedback to the campus. Now, we can't change curriculum design overnight, but if there are certain things that those companies and those organizations and industries say that they continually need and are waiting for graduates to have or newly graduated employees to have, I think that's a really good opportunity to try to design a little bit more alignment between what we're doing in the higher ed space with what workforce needs. Now that, of course, some of that's going to get captured easily in certain more structured fields that have certifications like education, teacher preparation, nursing physicians and things like that.

(15:12):But then other areas, I think it still continues to evolve. So more frequent and ongoing conversation with workforce in general could certainly help us. But I have a third group that I think might be the bridge between the two and is recent graduates. Now, the hard part is trying to get someone who just graduated within a year or two to be willing to go back, not literally physically go back, but to reach back to their campus and provide that valuable within the last two years, feedback would be fantastic. Now, the incentive, it has to be there to say, I know the many things you're juggling having just finished college, what would entice them to want to give back? But if I'm thinking about someone who's in college and they're thinking about the next step, who better to talk to than someone who just came from that same institution, entered the workforce, looking for a job and had an experience.

(16:00):Now, I understand the critique, not saying that somebody who was a history major would benefit the same way from talking to someone who was an electrical engineering major, but it truly might help to say they both came through at least the first 60 credit hours. In some cases, the general learning curriculum, they've gone through the same suite of services in terms of coaching and advising, things like that. I think there's some opportunity there for recent graduates who partner with their campuses and maybe create some space for those soon to be graduates to talk with them. What's it been like? What was your experience? What are some steps that you took? Not to put too much pressure on it and say that they should be the next type of advisor, but to me, when it comes to partnership, I think when we're talking about real world applications, I think there's some recent grads who are in the real world and applying some things pretty frequently, that type of connection, it creates a space for a more candid conversation. I think that maybe some current students would appreciate it,

Shauna Cox (16:53):And I think not only would those students appreciate it, but if you're looking at the recent grads, I'm just thinking about myself here. I'm like, I wish I had that. And so I can provide that opportunity to those people who have the freshest of the fresh people

(17:07):Who are experiencing what they're probably going to experience in a year or two, and hopefully the economy or the industries don't change too much from when those people are speaking with each other. But I love that idea, and I kind of want to shift gears here because we're talking about students narrating their learning journey, and especially today, the definition of a learner is very, there are so many different types of learners, and lifelong learning is definitely something that is really important. When you're talking about real world applications, people are now starting to come in and out of the institution having their own chapters of their stories. So how should institutions evolve to meet those needs of those lifelong and maybe non-traditional learners?

Amelia Parnell (17:53):I like that question a lot. I think the two ways that kind of come to mind, one is to build on the previous one. Nothing beats a conversation. I think that if we can identify who those individuals are and they'd be willing to talk with us. I know we could do a survey, but I'm talking about a conversation which is literally tell us about how you've been experiencing this campus. Yes, an actual conversation. It doesn't have to be lengthy, but not to just ask some key questions. How have you been experiencing the campus lately, academically, socially, when it comes to support services? What have you been finding useful? What would you like to see more of those types of things. And I imagine that once you talk to one student, you're going to need to talk to another student and another student and another student, but some themes will evolve.

(18:31):This is not research design, but again, I say nothing beats a conversation because when you go to a really great restaurant, someone's going to say, how was it? Oh, it was good. And the next thing they say, well, what was good about it? Was it the menu? Was it the customer service? That type of thing. We are in the same scenario and that if we're talking about those who are seeing a continuous back and forth engagement with the campus, we do need to check with them. If they're coming back, they're coming back for a reason. So

(18:53):I think it's not so much to put the weight on to say, if scores of lifelong learners don't like what's being offered, that you changed things dramatically. But if you don't ask them and you didn't know they didn't like it, we could be producing the same types of deliverables and nobody's interested in, or maybe they're interested, but they're not fully satisfied. So I think the second step of the two is to really try to do some process mapping. And what I mean by that is it's really easy when we have been in the same system on one side of it for a long time, to not think about literally the equivalent of the secret shopper. I think that the signage on the campus is fine, but you don't realize that until you go to a different campus and you're trying to navigate it for the first time.

(19:33):You're like, wait a minute, why did they put this here? Why did they put that there? So to some degree, if the symptoms of things that are maybe not the smoothest come out of those conversations or the kudos for the things that are working, that helps keep a certain frame. When you say, perhaps maybe we should get a group of people who could go through this current process and just ask them start to finish, how long did it take you to find the answer to this particular question? It might be as simple as, how do I register for a class? Or how long did it take you to go from this part of the campus to the other part of the campus with this amount of information that you just got in the email? And that showcases, or I should say, reveals places for the process to be improved.

(20:08):So when it comes to evolving to meet the needs of the learners, I think it's a balance of knowing that every learner has a different set of needs, but at the minimum, the system itself that they're addressing those needs within has to be clear and fluid and easy to navigate enough such that regardless of the lifelong learners tenure at the campus or their background or experiences, at a minimum, they should not be confused by the way the process is intended to flow. You can figure that out when you talk to them because tell you some things, but then also tell you some things that are working exceptionally well, and that's good too, but that ultimately leads to tweaks and modifications to the process. And I think overall, it's a continuous thing that you do, but that does lead to, I think, the type of evolution that most campuses would hope to achieve.

Shauna Cox (20:49):Absolutely. You need the good, the bad, so you can adapt. And I really love the idea of the secret shopper of higher ed. I think that is exactly what every campus should have to understand what's going right, what's going wrong, and just giving a nice evaluation of how things are going.

Amelia Parnell (21:06):Yeah. I vote for multiple shoppers though, because we're all different. We all want different things.

Shauna Cox (21:10):Exactly. And it's grabbing a group of 10 people with various different backgrounds and everything and different needs and stuff like that to see what targets are you hitting, what are you missing? And yeah,

Amelia Parnell (21:22):Yeah. Lemme also add that I'm going to say secret only until the work is done. Please reveal yourself after not secret, just for the sake of being secretive. I think I like the idea of an open and transparent set of reflections. I say secret only in the sense that, Hey, I don't need anyone to know I'm going to be there, so things don't change. But once I get there and try everything out, then I'm looking to open up my full set of notes, and I don't want to create a stir among your listeners. They're like, oh, no, Amelia just said everything has

Shauna Cox (21:52):To be kept secret. No, no, no. I'm thinking the opposite. They're everything we love. We love trading not so

Amelia Parnell (21:59):Secrets. Yeah. I say secret's probably not even the right word. Secret only in the sense that it doesn't require special treatment, is what I mean. Exactly.

Shauna Cox (22:08):We want a fair, unbiased experience for these people. So we secret shoppers of higher ed, we'll just call them the shoppers of higher ed. Maybe we'll work

Amelia Parnell (22:17):On it. We'll work on a terminology.

Shauna Cox (22:21):The last question I just have for you here is from your position at naspa, what trends will shape future student engage you can possibly see, because obviously we can't predict the future. And then how should leaders respond to these trends that are happening to ensure the success of their students and the institution?

Amelia Parnell (22:40):Yeah. I think some trends are within our, I don't want to say control, but our influence level and some are not. So the hard part is that some trends that we're seeing, and most notably the trend related to enrollment and the number of students that we anticipate coming to college over the next five to 10 years, in some ways it's predictable in that we're expecting a decline, but in other ways it's unpredictable because we're not sure about how campuses would change their enrollment management strategy. So that's another conversation for another time. But it does relate to engagement because fewer students might change your strategy for how you address serving their needs. But the things that I think are within our influencer level of purview, one, we've already talked about it, and it is collaboration. So it is not a new trend, but it's a more intentional trend.

(23:24):I think we will continually see more campuses trying to use a collaborative approach, a holistic approach, the words we've talked about already, to do everything from create care teams to student support teams, to retention committees, things that are already out there. But I think the types of questions that those teams of collaborators across the campus will discuss will continue to evolve in more intentional ways. I can't mention the trends shaping the future without mentioning something related to technology. And I won't say AI specifically, but anything that relates to us creating deeper connections virtually, I think that will probably be a trend for one reason or another, the idea that we can create more space for the transformational by leveraging technology to address things that are transactional. So could I possibly engage with this campus via web, internet, phone, possibly, and not actually have to come to the campus to do something that's very transactional?

(24:19):Is there a way to leverage technology so that the option of doing some things without physically being there leaves more room such that I would say, but when I am on campus, I get to meet with Shauna and we're going to have that deeper conversation about why I want to be a physicist, that type of thing. So I feel like the trends related to the industry itself, enrollment, we don't really have as much control over those things, but it will shape the future. I think the trend related to collaboration, we can influence, and I think the intentionality around that will continue to be deeper and more student-centered and holistic. The technology piece, we're on the cusp now of seeing even within two or three years now, it feels like there's another evolution of what we're going to be able to leverage technology to do. In terms of how leadership respond, I think it still comes back to the themes of what I was just sharing.

(25:03):Leaders can respond by proactively having the conversation, and that's not exclusively just with students about what's working well and what they want to see more of, but literally talking with those faculty and with those student affairs professionals and with those CIOs and with those business and development officers and those who are managing the finances of the campus and alums and all that stuff. And I know that might seem like, Amelia, you just gave us the longest list ever for how leadership respond. The reason why I started there is because if the latter part of the question is to ensure success, similar to how we described a kind of a buffet, we all have a part in it. And so I think leaders right now will be pressed to figure out which particular collaborative engagements can lead to that ensuring of success. Sometimes it might be a partnership between academic and student affairs.

(25:47):Other times it might be the development office and another office, something like that. So it's about putting the right connections in place and trying to set plans that are sustainable over time. So whether that be those teams get together to look at technology or they get together to look at enrollment trends, or they get together to figure out new strategic work groups, I'm not really sure, but I feel like most of the leaders who are responding will probably have something in there, blueprint of success that involves figuring out the connections across silos, much like the questions you asked earlier. So

Amelia Parnell (26:18):A lot more I can say about that. But that's what I got for now for our last,

Shauna Cox (26:21):Well, and I know you said you called it a long list for leadership, but you're giving them something to start with, and there are so many components that someone may even start thinking about and brainstorming where they need to start, and it's just so overwhelming. So at least you have a nice comprehensive list that they can start tackling.

Amelia Parnell (26:39):Absolutely.

Shauna Cox (26:39):So I really do appreciate you taking the time to chat with me. And before I, you go now with your dining experience analogy, I'm not afraid to ask you this question.

Amelia Parnell (26:48):Okay.

Shauna Cox (26:49):You are based in Washington dc. If someone's coming out to dinner, where do they need to go?

Amelia Parnell (26:55):That is a great question. It's a question I've never been asked on a podcast, so I will not ever forget this. There's so many good spots to eat in dc, but one that I go back to and have never had a friend or family member or colleague join me for dinner here that has not said that they liked it, and they don't even know I'm going to answer it. I didn't know you were going to ask me the question. It's a spot called Chloe. And so if I'm doing the commercial break for them on the southeast quadrant of dc, so fourth Street, I remember, and if you go there, it is a really great dining experience. So you could go there for brunch, I suppose. I think they may have brunch sometime, but dinner is really cool. I really like the potatoes. There's nothing special about the potatoes, honestly. They're just potatoes, but they have a little bit of salt on top, and they're just seasoned exceptionally well. But I've not had anything on that menu that I haven't enjoyed. I like that. And I like the cauliflower if you go. So it's a really good spot.

Shauna Cox (27:46):Well, I love specific examples, and I think there is a conference later on in the year that is in Washington DC that I know I'll be attending. So I guess I'm going to Chloe. I think you should. Amazing. Awesome. Well, Amelia, again, thank you so much for joining me. It was great chatting with you.