Ailsa Craig (Memorial University of Newfoundland) on A New Educational Ecosystem Rooted in Credentials

On today’s episode of the Illumination by Modern Campus podcast, podcast host Shauna Cox was joined by Ailsa Craig to discuss the importance of diversifying credentials and the power of creating on and off ramps in education. 

Transcript

Welcome to Illumination by Modern Campus, the leading podcast focused on transformation and change in the higher education space. On today’s episode, we speak with Ailsa Craig, who is a professor and administrator at Memorial University of Newfoundland. Ailsa and podcast host Shauna Cox discuss the importance of diversifying credentials and the power of creating on and off ramps in education. 

Shauna Cox (00:02):Ailsa welcome to the Illumination podcast. I'm so glad to be chatting with you today.

Ailsa Craig (00:06):I'm so glad to be here. Thanks so much.

Shauna Cox (00:09):Yeah. So we are here to talk about everything credentials as there are so many out there and it's a lot to manage. So to kick off our conversation, why are universities exploring pathways to diversify and extend the range of credentials that they offer?

Ailsa Craig (00:27):Oh, well, it's a necessity. So there's a changing face to higher ed and to the labor market and to the range of learners that we serve. So those changes, particularly with labor market demands, those can happen really quickly and they require a really quick turnaround time. So diversifying the range of credentials that we offer from just the traditional degree programs is part of responsivity to labor market needs and also to learner needs to interests and the ways that people want to or able to engage with their education. So I want to stress it's not only about the labor market. The labor market is definitely part of it, but diversifying credentials is a way to ensure that the teaching and learning needs of the students that we're serving are kept in the foreground because people, people don't always have the capacity to attend a full-time multi-year program.

(01:21):And universities have to find ways to meet students where they are and support them as they are, as they're working towards their goals. And a diverse and a more flexible approach to credentialed learning where you've got this diversity of different ways that you can engage with the institution is part of being centered on students as who they are, rather than creating programming that's presuming a certain definition of who students are and how they're approaching their learning. So rather than approaching the idea of students saying, oh, that's somebody who is in this age range who has just moved out from their parents, who there's a whole bunch of different people who are wanting to engage in learning, whether it's because they're going eventually towards a degree program or whether it's that they've already done college or university, but now they want to explore a different area or upskill or re-skill. There's a lot of different things that are happening and we have to be able to be flexible in order to be student centered.

Shauna Cox (02:26):Absolutely. And the conversation I'm seeing around higher ed among students and previous students, future students, all that is the conversation around how higher ed can help in the sense of is it going to extend this, is it going to do that? We're moving beyond just being there for four years, two years, however long you need it. So I think it's really critical to, it's becoming the norm of, well, how can higher ed fit into my life, not just walking in the door going for four years. And so you did mention traditional programming, traditional degrees, so I know this can be, or it is been talked about in higher ed of maybe source subject or a little bit of tension around this, but does the proliferation of microcredentials suggest that the value of the traditional bachelor's degree is diminishing?

Ailsa Craig (03:26):Oh, going for the sore point and only the second question. No, far from it. I don't think that it, the degree of value of a traditional bachelor's degree is diminishing at all. A traditional bachelor's degree equips students with a wide range of both transferable skills as well as that more focused education in their area of interest. And along with the focus of any particular bachelor's degree, traditionally, they offer a breadth of education that assists with critical thinking and strategic problem solving. So it equips people for the job market, but also for civic responsibility of being informed and for knowing how to stay informed and to inform oneself and assess information with a critical eye. And those are really crucial skills we see that day to day how crucial it is for people to know how to do that and to have those skills. And I understand a bachelor's degree is not the only way to achieve those skills, but the traditionally structured experiences of bachelor's degree are a really solid way to meet that goal.

(04:37):And we do know that the ways that a traditional degree can provide ways for people to learn how to learn serves people in a wide range of crucially important ways. And we see that also, we see evidence of that in how micro-credentials are often valuable entry points into a bachelor's degree. So if the value of that degree was diminishing, I don't think that we would be seeing such a focus on having micro-credentials or alternative credentials stack or ladder into traditional degree programs. I just don't think that we would have that focus at all if we had any evidence that the value of the degree itself was diminishing.

Shauna Cox (05:17):Absolutely. To your point, it's really how can micro-credentials fit into the degree and make it, I think it's just a perspective of making it more digestible for the learner for what they need in that time who may not be able to afford the full degree either financially or through their own time and things like that. So how can micro-credentials serve as on-ramps and off-ramps to education?

Ailsa Craig (05:45):I think there are different ways for that. So the flexibility of short cycle learning can make it more accessible to your point, as you were saying in terms of financially, but then also in terms of time for if somebody's first foray into higher education. And so that flexibility. So rather than saying, oh, I've got to quit my job or do whatever and go and do this full-time, that you can have that first foray, be more flexible, more accessible so that you can figure out if that's the thing that you want to be doing. So as an on-ramp, there's that. But that can also support people's confidence with pursuing further education through a degree program. If we're looking at non-traditional learners who aren't coming through a lockstep thing, if somebody's been out of school for 10 years and they're going back to school, I know for myself, I did my undergraduate degree after having seven years off, which is not that long.

(06:49):But even after just that seven years, I was like, I don't know how to sit in class. How do I do this? And it all worked out fine, but it can support that confidence and it can allow people to explore different areas before committing to a particular program. But they can still have that flexible exploration count towards the larger credential that they may be seeking. So those are ways that it can be for on-ramps. But I'm trying to think for off-ramps is I, maybe it's because I work in the CE space, I'm like, I would like to see somebody actually stop learning in their life. I don't think that's going to happen. So I'm uncomfortable with off-ramps, but I do know what you mean. I think that it can be about using alternative credentialing to acknowledge the work that's been accomplished. Somebody is in a degree granting program and something changes in the circumstance of their life, and those circumstances shift and they're not going to be completing the program as it's laid out, having a way to credential the work that they've done, support students so that what they've accomplished isn't leading to nothing as it were.

(08:15):But it's also about clearly communicating the skills and the knowledge that they've acquired. So life changes and sometimes leaving something is not quitting or failing, sometimes leaving something is responding responsibly to shifting circumstances or responsibilities. And it's not that you have nothing from doing this. You've learned things and you want to be able to both have that validated for your own sense of self, but also for when you're communicating to possible employers or communicating to other educational, other educational systems in the future. So it's about clarity and I think about acknowledging that the work that's happening in a program is not just about the moment you get that final degree crossing the stage. Sure, it's a great ceremony. Everybody loves to go to convocation and that's really valuable, but there is an awful lot that happens in between. So if there are reasons why somebody doesn't cross that stage, it doesn't mean that there aren't things that should be validated and accredited along the way. So I think it can work as an off-ramp that way. That was probably a longer answer than you wanted.

Shauna Cox (09:36):No, it's completely all good. And maybe we don't call it, maybe it's just a loading zone and en route. You're just kind of sitting in a parking lot for a little bit to come back onto the highway. Who knows? Maybe that's how we need to rephrase it. We'll come up with something really creative. I think

Ailsa Craig (09:51):We're going to start talking about ride sharing with industry. I'm not sure.

Shauna Cox (09:54):Yeah, exactly. And so I want to switch to an operational standpoint for this and ask why are university CE divisions ideally positioned to support these micro-credentialing initiatives at their respective institution?

Ailsa Craig (10:12):Well, I think that continuing education divisions for the most part tend to have the ability to be more quickly responsive to focused needs. So there's an agility to continuing education units in part because of the ways that they've often been run on a business model that's cost recovery or revenue generating. That's part of it. A continuing education unit can create programs or just as importantly, can cancel programs more quickly than other parts of the university. And micro-credentialing often needs to be so sensitive to really fine tune changes in labor market needs. So it needs to have that kind of turnaround time. I'm trying to avoid the word nimble because I'm tired of that word, but now maybe I'm over reliant on the word agility. But continuing education is used to that necessity of agility and the structures that continuing education units tend to use, support that in ways that academic faculties and units can find challenging with the traditional models of program development and delivery. Going through the undergraduate studies committee and then going to the faculty council and then going to senate, going through all of that takes so much time that it's hard to be as quickly responsive as is needed for the fine tuned focused educational interventions that micro-credentials tend to be.

Shauna Cox (11:41):And so those, I find that CE units, especially for something like microcredentials, are really at the forefront of their institution. And this answer may vary based on where an institution CE division sits, because sometimes they're central, oftentimes they're not depending on where their focus is. So what does it take for CE divisions to serve as that hub for the institution's micro-credentialing efforts?

Ailsa Craig (12:08):Oh, well, there's no way that there's just one answer for that.

(12:14):I mean, there are so many different answers to that. So I think that support from central administration is really important for that. But that support needs to be expressed in a number of different ways. So a clear position so that the CE units or unit, whichever it is, need to have a clear position in the structure of the university. That includes continuing education and continuing education's voice as part of academic discussions and decisions. So a clear sense another way is a clear sense of how continuing education, while it can and does generate revenue, is not only about revenue generation, but that it's deeply connected to the academic missions of universities and that can help support the work of other units. That's something that needs to be part of that support from central administration, that clear sense. And for that not to be just something that people believe, but also something that's built into structures and processes.

(13:21):Because when we rely just on what people believe or somebody's opinion on something, then it's attached to that person. But when we look at this is the way we do things, that's something that is solidified in our structures and our processes. So making sure that the CE units continuing education units are built into the structures and processes. And one thing I would say connected to that in the 12 pillars for success executive guide, the concluding page talks about how continuing education unit support, transformation, and if I can quote it, I'm sorry. Yeah, absolutely. They do. So quietly, sorry. They do so quietly on the periphery of their respective institutions. That experience of being peripheral within the university, that can be a benefit in some ways to be left to do your work well, just to be left in the perfect to just do your work and to get it done.

(14:27):That can be a real benefit and I understand that. But those benefits can come at a cost if you're not adequately connected with central academic missions and structures. And how that happens will vary. As I said when I first started answering, it's going to vary from one institution to the next and it'll vary a great deal, but it needs to be done deliberately. It needs be done with a clear eye on the kinds of partnerships within the university you want to enable and to support and what outcomes you're looking for and what the roots of communication are. So really thinking strategically about what those structures are, as I think really important, it will absolutely vary. So as you said, some people have one continuing education unit and sometimes it's off to the periphery. Some people have a centralized continuing education unit, some people have a hub and spoke model. There's lots of different ways you do it. I think the main thing is for it to be really intentional and for there to be that intentionality, be connected to a support that sees continuing education as really deeply connected to the life of the university and the way that the university connects with students across their lives and throughout their lives and connects with industry, connects with government. I'll leave it there.

Shauna Cox (15:52):It's an endless connection and it needs to be this ecosystem that is fostering this idea of lifelong learning. And it's true what you said earlier, you just never stop learning. So this is one of the ways that that can happen and get it off the ground. So those are all the questions I have for you, but I do want to throw in one, actually, this is the second last question, throwing one in. But I just want to get your thoughts on where do you see credentials either going in Canada, north America, or where would you like to see them to go? Are you seeing any trends or anything like that?

Ailsa Craig (16:30):I can say what I think it needs to do. There goes my phone dinging for some reason. I can say what I think we need to do. I don't know if I can predict what we will do.

Shauna Cox (16:54):So where would you like to see credentials kind of going?

Ailsa Craig (17:01):I would like to see the way that we offer credentials, ensure that we are really paying attention to how it is that we are meeting the needs of learners, both related to what they need for the job market and to seeing job market needs as not as being student centered. That's something because there seems to be a division between thinking of being student centered and being connected to labor market needs. And part of the reality is what people get out of education is not always very directly only about what's that job going to be. There are lots of different positive outcomes and necessary outcomes from education, but if we think that being student-centered doesn't mean paying attention to labor market needs, I think we've got the wrong end of the stick.

Shauna Cox (17:56):They absolutely go hand in hand with one another. And I think that's a really great way to put it. I think it's very compartmentalized right now. It's either you're student-centric or you're answering labor, but we kind need that bridge to bring the two of them together to really meet student needs, industry needs, and really just have that win-win for everybody. Absolutely. Well, those are all the questions now that I have for you. But before I let you go, and this is coming, we need a restaurant recommendation from you. You are in St. John's, Newfoundland. Where do people need to go?

Ailsa Craig (18:33):There are three places that I really, really like. So the place that has been around the longest that I have liked for a very long time, that I've liked for a really long time is blue on water. So blue on water is fantastic for dinner. Their specials are out of this world. It's some really good food. Sparrow is a newer restaurant and they make their own pasta. I think also blue on water makes their own pasta, but their past is too. It's an Italian restaurant. It's so lovely. It's fantastic. And Portage is incredible. So those are the three that I would say. So Portage has a different way of doing it. So you order individual dishes, not a dish with all the sides and you order for the table. So if you order carrots, they will bring enough carrots for the table,

Shauna Cox (19:28):Like family style,

Ailsa Craig (19:30):Sort of family style, but fancier and funkier.

Shauna Cox (19:34):Nice. I love it. Thank you so much for the recommendations and thank you so much for the conversation. It was really great chatting with you.

Ailsa Craig (19:57):Oh, it's really nice to talk with you, Shauna. Thanks.