Angela Kersenbrock (The Community College Baccalaureate Association) on How Data Fuels Community College Baccalaureate Success

On today’s episode of the Illumination by Modern Campus podcast, podcast host Shauna Cox was joined by Angela Kersenbrock to discuss how data-driven decision-making is transforming the community college space and how to foster economic stability.  

Transcript

Shauna Cox(00:02):Angela, welcome to the Illumination Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Angela Kersenbrock (00:07):Thank you for having us, Shauna. We appreciate your asking CCBA to be part of this conversation.

Shauna Cox(00:14):Absolutely. So data is something I think is increasingly being talked about more and more in the higher education space. It is so crucial for institutions to understand their audience and especially when looking at engagement, retention and how they can help students along with the community in succeeding in their educational journey in life, all of that. So I want to kick off our conversation and ask you, how do you see the role of data, you see the role of data transforming the community college programs to better serve the community in the workforce?

Angela Kersenbrock (00:52):That's a great question. So I spent 34 years in the community colleges, in the workforce areas, and so almost everything that we did was based on data. So particularly labor market needs and what the curriculum looked like and where our graduates were in placement and all those. And I think when you have a certain body of content knowledge, when you marry that and then you have a body of experience, but when you marry that with data, really good, solid data that is repeatable and you can count on it, then I think that gives you so much wisdom to make decisions. And I think your decisions, you won't make as many mistakes, let's say. I think in my past when I've made decisions about which program to start, not using great data, not using the data, I might've not done as well as I should have, but every time we used the data, we did great.

(01:54):We had great programs that ended up with really good outcomes for students. So I think the data, particularly labor market needs, what really are the labor market needs in your region? I mean, that's critical for any community college to know. Being able to use the data to look at groups in your community, which groups are underserved, where you need to add additional resources to support those students in moving ahead. So I think data can really move you from where you are to where your mission says that you want to be. So the data is really critical. It really gives you an unbiased picture. As long as you set up the data correctly, it gives you an unbiased picture of where you are against, benchmarked against where you want to go, and where other colleges that you might aspire to where they are. So data is critical. And as a community college professional, we were looking at the data every day, but it's learning how to use it, how to make decisions with it. But I think the combination of experience, content, knowledge and data is just an unbeatable combination.

Shauna Cox(03:20):Absolutely. And I want to talk about community college baccalaureate programming. I'm going to call it CCB for short. Just to give context to the audience, how has the data helped shape CBC programs to meet the needs of local communities and the global marketplace?

Angela Kersenbrock (03:40):Sure. Thank you. Well, so first of all, CCBs are what we call it too, because even writing that out, that's an awful lot of letters. So we go with CCBs, CCBs should be built on the data, And I think that's really critical because there are some times that sometimes you'll run into this where a faculty or a board of trustees member or somebody within the organization has a thing and they really want this program something. But you've got to match that with the data. What do the labor market needs, say for your community? How big is the gap between what's being produced, how many nurses are being produced in your community against what your hospitals are saying they need, what people retiring are doing? All of that data needs to come together to make really good solid decisions. And so I think that the data keeps you honest in terms of what programs. So one of the interesting things is trying to get at emerging fields because the data's not as good on emerging fields as it is on current fields like nursing. We all know nursing, we all know education, we all know it, and public safety and law enforcement and all of those kinds of things. But it's not as good on emerging fields. And so I think that that is where the colleges work very well with their economic development groups and their chambers to make sure that they know what's going on.

(05:29):I think that's one thing. I think the other thing that the data helps you with is really understanding your community. What are the groups in your community? Who are the communities? Are they all being served? Are there underserved communities within your group? So if you really understand who's in your community, then you really understand what the data, who's at your institution. Sometimes there's gaps. We're not serving certain groups. And so then that can help you say, okay, we are not serving black males. We as much as our community needs us to, and so what can we do? Let's build some strategies to do that. So it keeps you focused so you don't get off on these tangents how we can do, sometimes we don't get off on these tangents. We can stay true to what the data is and go from there. So I think the data, I mean, how many times can you say the data is critical to good decision making, good programmatic ideas, what you should have, who you're serving, all of those kinds of things.

Shauna Cox(06:38):And when you're talking about meeting the needs of the students and the workforce, I think today especially, it's continuing to rapidly evolve and trying to keep pace with it. So what are some of the challenges too, CBC programming? And that can either be from a data standpoint or from a development perspective.

Angela Kersenbrock (07:00):I think there's a lot of challenges. So let's see. One of the things, community colleges are very adept. They can start programs a lot faster than maybe a university with a big infrastructure, which is good and bad. That's not passing judgment. But the community colleges can be a lot more nimble. And so I think that really helps. So if they can see, hey, advent Hospital or some hospital HCA is building a new facility, they're going to need 2015 new RNs. Let's work to double our enrollment. So let's put in an evening program and let's do this. Let's do some things that can help to capture what our community needs. I think the challenge is always, do you have enough faculty that can do that, particularly in those high need areas. Do you have enough faculty? Can you pay those faculty? Do you have the infrastructure to deliver those kinds of programs?

(08:11):It's the typical challenges, but community colleges are really good at knowing what their community needs. And when I say knowing, I don't mean intuitively knowing. I mean, looking at the data presidents, vice presidents, deans are out there every single day talking to the community so they know what's needed and their mission of meeting the community needs is right where it needs to be for this day and age. We have so many labor needs in this country. Our country, our unemployment rate is very low. We don't have the luxury of leaving anybody behind. Everybody's got to get on this train, this bus. We've got to give everybody the opportunity for access that I think community colleges are really good at. Really that's their mission. So I think that really helps communities that where you've got a strong community college.

Shauna Cox(09:15):And I want to pull from the community college playbook, if you will, to share with our audience. You mentioned the community college's ability to meet the needs and know where to take action to help overcome some of these obstacles. So what are some of those best practices and maybe just the natural nature of community college to help overcome these obstacles. And when it comes to the data, what exactly should higher ed leaders be looking at? Which data points should they be? Well,

Angela Kersenbrock (09:49):I think there's a lot of data out there. So I think a really good look at which of the data really has what you need. So I know has a lot of great data. Chambers have a lot, department of Labor, Georgetown Center for Workforce and Education has a lot of really great data. All of that data is great. You've got to marry that with what's really happening in your community. Who else is producing graduates of whatever the graduates might be? Computer science or cybersecurity? So using the data correctly, using the data to make decisions. I think sometimes we have the data, but we might not use it to make decisions always. And that's hard because community colleges are stretched. I think all higher ed institutions are stretched and are offering an unbelievable amount of services. So one of the challenges is which of those services, which services are really being effective and what services are really impacting the outcomes that you want? So the data can also be used to make decisions about what services you need to expand, what services you need to move or shift to shift something. Do we need an onsite tutoring center or do we need an online tutoring?

(11:15):Those things should come from the data to help make decisions. And so I think that, I got lost where we were with that, but community colleges, like all higher ed associations don't have more money than they know what to do with this idea of colleges are charging so much tuition and they've got all this money. I don't know. I don't know where that's come from. But using the data coupled with who your student is and what they need and how you meet the workforce needs or their need to go on to a four year university or a community college baccalaureate is what you need to make decisions.

(12:06):So that's high, but change is a constant for our colleges executive leadership. They're changing all the time to try to meet the needs of a changing community and a changing marketplace and a changing economy and all changing political landscape. So they've got to be geniuses, I think, to integrate all of that, to meet the needs of a 24-year-old student who is coming to them so that they could have economic stability, they could have the opportunity for the American dream, they can live in a safe neighborhood. All of those things, they could save for retirement. So what community colleges are able to do with the data, I think is amazing.

Shauna Cox(12:58):Absolutely. They're certainly kept on their toes, especially in this landscape today. And I want to look at the ripple effect of the work that they're doing. And ask you, what impact specifically does C-B-C-C-C-B programming have on institutions and that broader community, as you mentioned?

Angela Kersenbrock (13:17):Yeah, this is one of, I think, the most exciting topics. So the research that we've done has shown that somebody who's going to a community college of baccalaureate program will say to you, this was my only option. I wasn't going to the university. Sometimes their option is the for profit, and that's not a great option. They end up with huge debt. So I think the way that the community colleges, so we're having about 20, 22,000 graduates a year. That's not a lot, but that number is growing. But those folks, those graduates are making in California, they're starting at like $70,000. Their salaries are high compared to the student with the associate degree. They're on par with the university students. So it's an untapped market that wasn't going to get their needs weren't going to get met. They didn't think they could go and get a bachelor's degree, and now they have one.

(14:26):And so when one person in that family, the mother or the dad, or the mother and the mother, whomever, when they have that bachelor degree, it changes that family for generations. There's no going back Once they have that degree, when they have that degree, when the parent has that degree, the students are going to get a degree, not the students, but their children will get a degree. They're going to live better neighborhoods. They're going to have sidewalks. Their health is going to improve all of those things. They're going to have the money to go to the doctor when somebody has the flu so it doesn't get worse. Exactly. All of those things dry are from baccalaureate attainment and degree attainment. So yes, it meets the market needs, it meets this hospital is putting in a new hospital or expanding, adding another floor. And so now we have the RNs, the respiratory therapist to staff it. We have the teachers for the schools. But what that's also done for the students that are in that little elementary school is very impactful. And we don't even have a way of measuring that. We just have students, the graduates have told us, I'm doing this because I want my children to know that they can go on and get a degree that that's a pretty big impact.

(15:49):And so that's how we change communities. Let's take a rural community. My husband is from a small town, 2000 people. If the students, all the really smart people in the town have to leave to go get a degree, what are the chances of them coming back? Not good. They're going to meet somebody. They're going to fall in love, they're going to get a great job. All of those things. So you end up with these rural communities who are doing a great job K through 12, and then they leave. And so now who's going to stay in the community and help the community continue to thrive? So if the community college has a bachelor degree for education or nursing or health information management or business or entrepreneurship or any of those things, well, maybe now some of those people can stay in the community and can help that community thrive.

(16:46):So I think there's so many things. These baccalaureates do. Universities do a fabulous job. We would not be this country, the quality of this country if we didn't have our universities. They're strong, they're good. They do a wonderful job, but there's a group of people that for whatever reason, aren't going to get served by them. And so do we just say, well, okay, I guess we have a group of people who won't have this opportunity. No, we can't say that. So community colleges are stepping up, and right now there's 191 community colleges and more. I think about, because we keep track with our program inventory, it's hard to keep track because they're growing all the time and offering more than 700 different degrees. And so everyone should have the opportunity for equal access and equal opportunity. And the only way we do that is through higher education. I think this whole thing, this whole thing about, oh, you don't need a college degree. Bill Gates didn't finish or Mark Zuckerberg didn't finish. No, they created a company and oh, yeah, okay, great. But for normal humans, most of us are the college degree. That bachelor degree is the undisputable indisputable key to the middle and upper class.

(18:11):And the folks that are talking about, well, the value of the college degree isn't that good. It's not needed. Here's what I always think you're saying that, but your kids are going to college for somebody else. Somebody else can do that. And I ran apprenticeship programs for a long time, and they do fantastic. And they have good jobs, they have good salaries. That's great. That's what that person wants to do. But when that person wants to run a company that when they want to build an electricity company to be electric company, they should have a bachelor's degree to tell them how to run a company. When 50% of your companies fail, you want to be prepared. And so I think there's that combination of a workplace skill and that bachelor's degree is really unmatched. So you've gotten me on a soapbox. I apologize. I get really excited about this.

Shauna Cox(19:14):Exactly. You're passionate about the topic and that's why we have you. We want you to share your insights. I do want to be just mindful of time. We got about six minutes here. So I just want to ask you, what trends do you expect to see when it comes to CCB programming?

Angela Kersenbrock (19:27):I think we'll continue to see increases. I think that as more and more data comes out that community college baccalaureates are not impacting in negative way university enrollments. When people stop believing that, I hope we see more partnerships. We're going to see Texas expand. We're going to see California expand Arizona, Ohio, Oregon, Colorado. They're expanding. So I think what we're going to see is a huge uptick in the number of community college Becca Laureates. And I think the key for us is staying true to our mission, delivering on the promise that we've promised that these are accessible. You end up with great career sustaining, family sustaining jobs, and I think these degrees have to be quality, which is why CCBA and our membership, everybody has undertaken a project on a quality framework. What is it that really makes a good community college baccalaureate degree? It's different than what's at a traditional university degree. So I think that's where the trend's going to be. I think we're going to see more and more graduates, good salaries, more and more industries working with community colleges. I think it's a really good future. It's a good position. It takes a constellation of strategies to fix a problem. It's not going to be, oh, the community college's Baccalaureate Associates isn't going to fix everything. No, we're going to fix one thing. So

Shauna Cox(20:57):Amazing. Yeah. It's focusing on what you can in the moment, working towards that progress and opening opportunities for people who quite frankly might not even thought that college was an option. So

Angela Kersenbrock (21:11):We hear so many students saying that, I never thought I would go to college over and over. And we give a scholar, we give two to three scholarships every year, and the students get up there and say things like, I was homeless and now I'm signing a mortgage to live in a house because I have a great job. We hear that over and over and over again from our graduates.

Shauna Cox(21:41):That's why we get up every day, right? It's what we do.

Angela Kersenbrock (21:44):Exactly, Shauna. It's exactly why we do this.

Shauna Cox(21:48):Amazing. Well, Angela, those are all the questions that we have for you, but we're going to shift gears. Go away from higher ed. We're going to need a restaurant recommendation from you. So you are based in Lake Mary, Florida Lake. People need to go.

Angela Kersenbrock (22:03):People need to go to Lake Mary. Home of the world champion little leaguers. I have two. One, Lighthouse Seafood in downtown Lake Mary. Fresh greats, great seafood, get there early. And the other is a cheese company out of Lake Mary Che Bella Cheese. Great cheeses. So those are my two recommendations. I can swear by both of them. I think I've gained 10 pounds going to them.

Shauna Cox(22:33):Amazing. I love it. Angela, thank you so much for joining me today,

Angela Kersenbrock (22:37):Shauna. Thanks for the opportunity and we'll see you soon.