Bryan Benjamin (Western University) and Amrit Ahluwalia (Western University) on Building a Collaborative Lifelong Learning Ecosystem

On this episode, Bryan Benjamin, Executive Director of The Ivey Academy and Amrit Ahluwalia, Executive Director of Continuing Studies at Western University, discusses the importance of institutional collaboration and creating a scalable lifelong learning ecosystem

Transcript

Shauna Cox (00:03):Amrit and Brian, welcome to the Illumination podcast. I'm so glad the two of you could join me today.

Amrit Ahluwalia (00:08):Well, thanks so much for the invitation, Shauna.

Bryan Benjamin (00:10):Yeah, great to be here.

Shauna Cox (00:12):Yeah, absolutely. So we are going to kick off this conversation around two of you are both at Western University, Amer leads the CE division. Brian, you are in the business school and I want to kick off this conversation and talk about the level of collaboration when it comes to a lifelong learning ecosystem, which is more prevalent today than ever before. So just starting off our conversation here, why do universities need to develop pathways for individuals to flow in and out of university across the lifetime rather than just serving individuals for the four years before they begin their career? And Brian, we'll start with you here.

Bryan Benjamin (00:53):Well, thanks for the invitation and thanks for the question. It is a question that we are asking ourselves on a daily basis is how do we stay current and how do we stay relevant? I think a simple starting point is the reality is things are changing so fast even within a four year span. So if I start my degree right now, imagine the world in 2028 and how different it's going to be. So if I think about the span of someone's career post university 30, 35, 40 years, we need to make sure that everyone is continuing to stay current, continuing to stay plugged in, and it doesn't necessarily need come back for another full degree. It could be a quick hit on AI and disruption and transformation and what does that look like. So it's going to be much more fluid and we just need to be able to stay ahead of the curve wherever possible.

Amrit Ahluwalia (01:55):Well, and building off that, Brian, I think one thing that gets me excited is thinking on how technology's advancing so rapidly just to stay current in your role, requires some kind of continuous learning, every sort of two and a half to three years Moore's laws, anyone who's heard me talk publicly about the continuing education landscape knows that this is my favorite technical fact. Computing power doubles every 18 months, and if computing power doubles every 18 months, the things that humans need to be able to do in order to be human workers has to change. I remember when once upon a time and anytime you'd want to schedule a meeting, you'd be going back and forth with someone trying to bounce time zones to figure out like, okay, what time are we both available? And now I think every single person in their dog has some kind of Calendly tool just to automate the scheduling process.

(02:49):And it's one example, but it's a massive time saver. I think as we sort of progress into this environment where generative AI especially starts to become more and more of a day-to-day tool for us, the things that humans need to be able to do to drive additional value starts to change and the capacity to stay relevant also change. I would also say there's a business component to this as well. For the average university, whether you're talking Canada or the us, there are fewer 18 year olds today than there used to be. And there will continue to be fewer 18 year olds with every passing year. So at a certain point, we also have a necessity to start looking at the audiences that we're serving to say, well, are we serving folks where there's a continuous growing number of individuals that we can engage? So there's also, I think there's a necessity component to this as well.

Shauna Cox (03:44):Absolutely. And of course we have the two of you on today's episode to talk about a level of collaboration. So Amrad start with you here and ask why is it important for institutional leaders to collaborate and create a scalable lifelong learning ecosystem?

Amrit Ahluwalia (04:00):Yeah, I mean the reality of it is that no one division can be everything to everyone. And I think as an industry we've had the tendency to think of ourselves in silos, not just at the institutional level, but then also at the departmental level. There's kind of a belief of the excellence of the silo and an investment vertically within the silo as opposed to thinking about the institution as a holistic landing spot where individuals can flow into and out of. So within our continuing education division, I think we've been guilty of this over the years, is really looking inwardly at how our portfolio can extend as opposed to looking outwardly to figure out where can we amplify existing work. And if I think about in the context of the alignment between business schools and continuing education, what's fascinating is that this is a space where there's often internal competition.

(04:55):But what's great about the work that we're starting to map out here, and Brian's been a leader here for I think maybe what four years or so, and I'm obviously very, very new. I think I'm coming to month five, but we have the opportunity to define a very, very different ecosystem here at Western where there's a very thoughtful progression of how an individual pursues and progresses through their lifelong education journey and where we can serve them along that pathway where the Ivy School is obviously extremely well known for its executive learning, but what the responsibility do we have to make sure that there's a consistent flow of students into that pipeline. And I think that's where continuing education can play a pretty interesting role.

Bryan Benjamin (05:36):

The word ecosystem is so appropriate in this context and it's really part of what we're doing right now is educating on the importance of lifelong learning as this habit and deliberate and conscious effort to continually upskill, stay plugged in, and how do we create that right ecosystem and Western and ivy as the business school within Western? We want to be part and we need to be part of alumni and there's sort of ecosystem if you will, but we're not the only part. In fact, that's one piece where I'll build on Amman's comment around. We need to figure out where can we play best, where can we add the most value? Where can we go deep and where can we amplify and where do we partner and where do we look for other kind of connection points so that we add value as part of someone's ecosystem, but they're also deriving value from other institutions and other sources that are out there. And I think the universities that are going to stand out in the future are the ones that are able to recognize their place within a broader ecosystem, but not necessarily be everything to everyone.

Amrit Ahluwalia (06:56):I want to jump in on that as well because such a foundational rethinking of what we're here to do. And I'll also huge shout out to the leadership at Western University for bringing in leaders like Brian and I who have this sort of outsider's perspective on what the ideal post-secondary ecosystem can look like. So any I guess longtime listener of this podcast will know that my previous role was leading the evolution on the evolution. We published an article by the now Dean Emeritus of Extended of the Extension at Harvard is a fellow named Hunt Lambert. And he wrote an article a few years ago basically talking about the role of the future university is being more oriented to learner relationship management than being oriented to the development and delivery of faculty created programming. And I think that's such a powerful thought on the role of the university as a guide for an individual's learning journey as opposed to a sort of gatekeeper or a wall of knowledge. And if we're going to truly be a guide to someone's lifelong education journey, there's a recognition that we cannot be the sole provider of programming, but we should be the sole provider of service. And then how that individual flows into and out of learning experiences, whether they're formal learning experiences are informal, is guided by our perspective on the direction they could go.

Shauna Cox (08:19):Absolutely. And looking at this lifelong learning ecosystem, obviously there's a lot of gears turning behind the scenes and I kind of want to talk about that specifically because it's easier said than done. So what are some of the key challenges that universities face from both strategically and operationally when it comes to serving lifelong learners? And Brian, we'll start with you.

Bryan Benjamin (08:43):So there are no shortage of challenges. So I think awareness is a big part of it, and I think within Western and Ivy we're pretty deliberate about saying where are we strong, where are the gaps? And sort of having some honest internal conversations. One of the biggest barriers, self-inflicted barrier, which is making it easy for individuals to navigate the system. I'm always amazed by the fantastic work going on across our ecosystem, whether it's leading research, whether it's an event, whether it's a program, and it's not always easy for someone to jump into the system to say, geez, I'm looking for this, or I wasn't aware of that. I wish I had known about that because I could have planned more deliberately. So we use this terminology very simply, how do we connect the dots for people? How do we allow them to have a longer term view of all that's available to them?

(09:49):We're soliciting input so that we can fill gaps in terms of is there something you need that we're not offering? So that outward looking component, but really actually just making sure the sum the whole is greater than the sum of the parts right now there's a lot of parts and we're not always creating the whole that's greater than the sum. So just kind of capturing understanding across the, so even Ivy, if we miss a huge opportunity, if we don't tap into the broader Western ecosystem, there's fantastic work going across the university that's very relevant. And so how do we pull that in? How do we push out what we're doing so that we can create a great experience for our alumni? I always want someone to say, geez, you know what? I want to go to Western or Ivy, I bet you they have something that is relevant for me. We might not always, but I want them to always have that mindset and we've got to make it easy for them if they're going to have that sort of first stop thought process.

Amrit Ahluwalia (10:51):Well, it's such a pivot, right? Historically I think alumni engagement has been about sort a continuous value. I am not sure rather of the continuous value that we've provided as post-secondary institutions to our alumni, I think we tend to rely on the existence of a social network as the reason that that individual will continue to engage with us over time. And I think as we start to explore the reality of a lifelong learning environment going forward, and at the same time as students start to thinking themselves more and more as consumers and behave more and more as consumers, our reality has to pivot to a place where we're consistently oriented to the value that we're providing those individuals over a lifetime. I'd say the knock on our sector historically has been a lack of alignment with employers, especially as partners in ongoing education. So I think the way that the corporate market has historically thought of the post-secondary space is very much, especially at the university level, is a nice to have.

(12:05):If there's budget available and if the brand's good enough, then maybe we'll spend this money. But in reality, it's more of we like the association with the badge more than we like the actual product that's being delivered. And our responsibility has to be pivoting to one where corporations and industry in our area and frankly across the country, see themselves in our strategic planning and they see themselves in our program planning. And it's a strategic shift in terms of how we prioritize our relationships with corporate Canada today as compared to historically. Operationally, man, it's a totally different ecosystem. We're not serving students on a semester level. We're not asking 'em to go through a 500 page application. We don't need their sin number. We need to provide a customer experience that actually aligns with those e-commerce expectations. They come in with, someone wants to be able to find a course, add it to a cart and register.

(13:06):Someone wants to be able to understand what's the ROI of this program that I'm enrolling in? What's the job that it's going to make me applicable for? What's the skillset I'm going to get out of it? They want to be able to display digital badges that highlight, here's the skillset that I developed as a result of this programming, and they want it to go on LinkedIn. So when an employer is looking for that skillset, they pop up at the top of the search with our brand beside it. So I think there's also a pivot that we need to execute in terms of being student-centric or customer-centric in understanding what's the expectation of our consumer and then how are we adjusting our operational ecosystem to align with that expectation.

Bryan Benjamin (13:44):I completely agree. It is making it easy, making it easy to connect, making it easy to consume. I talk to my team all the time is we've done a lot of work on operations to simplify and to really sort of shift that mindset I need to be as externally facing in my role as possible, right? Connecting, understanding, bringing back insights. The one additional piece I'm going to add to this is we've got alumni in over a hundred countries across the world, so we very much operate in a global context. So yes, a lot of our work happens in London and Toronto, but we've got a campus in Asia, we've got alumni that are bringing us insights, and I think our work in Canada is stronger when we bring our work outside of Canada here as well too. And so simple things like if we're hosting a live stream, don't always host it at noon Eastern standard time, maybe host it a little later or a little earlier to be able to capture alumni that are in other parts of the world that are going to add something completely unique to the conversation. So again, it's that sort of shift to external facing, bringing that perspective. And sometimes it's not a huge overhaul. It could be just a little tweak of move something a couple hours earlier or later and you all of a sudden completely change the way you've engaged with someone.

Amrit Ahluwalia (15:16):That's where the data starts to become really important. Who are we actually engaging and what are the things that they're enjoying about the experience and not enjoying about the experience? I think we also tend to operate from a place of assumption and the more data we have access to and the better we are at analyzing it, the more customer centric we can be.

Bryan Benjamin (15:34):Absolutely.

Shauna Cox (15:37):And I want to touch on a point that you made earlier when it comes to the reality of a lifelong learning environment. And I want to ask you the question of what exactly from your perspective, what are the characteristics of a lifelong learning ecosystem?

Amrit Ahluwalia (15:52):Yeah. Well, I think it starts with being customer oriented, and I'm using that word very intentionally here. I think if our customer sees themselves as a customer, we need to treat them as a customer. We need to recognize that reality. And that doesn't mean that we're providing them some kind of diploma mill learning experience because that's not what they're looking for as a customer. What they're looking for is the meaningful acquisition of skills and knowledge that's going to allow them to immediately, immediately apply them into the labor market, immediately apply them into the workforce and see tangible results. So we make it as easy as possible for them to navigate the administrative ecosystem that we create in order for them to spend as much time and energy on the learning experience as possible. So customer centricity is one, relevance is second. I think we absolutely need to make sure as part of being customer centric that our programming is relevant to the needs of that individual at that point in time.

(16:48):And then finally, folks at Western will laugh because I am using this analogy more and more and more and more, but as a continuing education division, historically, as I mentioned, we've operated as a silo, but I really see us as the prism in the dark side of the moon album cover. The reality is the university has operated sort of as that beam of light serving a very specific individual in a very specific way, both with research in both programming for at Western, I want to say over a hundred and nearly 150 years if not more. So our responsibility as a continuing education division is to be that prism that when the beam of light hits it, we can offer a wide expansive offerings to a wide expansive learners in the modality and at the price point and at the level of rigor that they expect to be able to get what they need out of it. So really in trying to make that learning experience applicable to the outside market, that's really where we need to shine. So again, customer centricity, relevance and

Bryan Benjamin (17:48):Applicability. I remember in my first meeting and it was like, oh, we could have talked for days just in terms of ideas and what we see as the opportunity, but I couldn't agree more in terms of what you just talked about from a continuing ed standpoint, executive education, even the term executive education is a little bit of a misnomer because we're working with frontline emerging leaders right up to the C-suite. And one of our, I think, value adds and where we help the ecosystem is in how we contribute back to the university and to the business school in particular. And so an area that has become abundantly evident is the average shelf life of a program is shorter and shorter and shorter because things are changing so fast. So it doesn't necessarily mean we need to always be introducing something new or a big overhaul that happens for sure.

(18:48):But sometimes it's an incremental tweak. Maybe it's a different case that gets subbed in, maybe it's a different conversation that needs to happen. But I see ourselves as a testing ground. So our programs are largely delivered by business school in western faculty, and it's an opportunity if you want to test out something new, come do it here. It's an opportunity for you to bring it back to even a degree program, and it's a much more fluid sort of reciprocal type relationship. And I think when we do it well and we do it right, we're adding more value to our customer. And I do like that mindset of a customer mindset. So the right topic, the right kind of conversation delivered in the format that makes the most sense for me. We actually become stronger in our degree programs, which means the whole ecosystem self reinforces over time.

Shauna Cox (19:45):And I want to deep dive into what you just said, Brian and CE divisions and business schools are typically the most active institutional players when it comes to serving a lifelong learner. So how can these divisions collaborate effectively to serve the learners across that 60 year timeframe?

Bryan Benjamin (20:03):Yeah, I think a big part of it is just conversations like this I think are so important where we're not running in parallel paths. So yes, you can't collaborate on everything, but let's be deliberate about what paths are we on, where do we think we can support each other? Where can we amplify and augment? And I think we're going to see the schools that really stand out are the ones that are much more deliberate about, it's not my program or your program, it's how do we best support? So where is it a continuing ed play? Where is it a executive education play? Where is it something in the middle where maybe there's a program that actually has components of both? That's what gets me excited because it kind of turns the conventional wisdom that has largely shaped this industry globally for decades and decades. And I think we're going to be in a much stronger position to be current, to be plugged in and to be relevant, invest serving alumni over up to six decades plus,

Amrit Ahluwalia (21:11):That's it. I mean, Brian and I to a certain extent are flying into some cultural headwinds in the structure of this discussion because there's what the ideal looks like and then there's what 150 years of tradition suggests. And I think for both of our departments, to Brian's point, it's about identifying where there's opportunities where we have solo benefit or solo impact, and then there's opportunities where there's combined and how do we create something that's greater than the sum of its parts is about identifying those crossover points. I really do see a very intentional effort at matriculation as a key benefit or a key outcome of what our shop can do in the continuing ed context, because in reality, we're really well set up to serve early career professionals. We're really set up to serve mid-career professionals and we're well set up to do large scale customized corporate training.

(22:08):What we're not set up to do is what happens when that individual then progresses to something that falls well outside our scope of expertise. And fortunately at Western, we have the best business school in the country with one of the best executive MBA programs and the best corporate executive training education that exists in Canada. So how do we make sure that individuals always see that as an opportunity that exists later in their career, an opportunity that exists at the right time in their career that they'll be ready for because of what we've managed to provide them across their life cycle. So the reality of it is if someone's coming cold into an executive training program without having engaged in sort of formal lifelong learning up to that point, there's going to be a pretty significant adaptation exercise that they'll have to go through to be ready for programming that's being taught by some of the best faculty in the country. And so being able to constantly engage people with sort of lower cost, more, maybe shorter term programming along the course of their lifetime, keeping them in that muscle memory of how to do formal education while balancing the demands of their job, while balancing the demands of their personal life sets them up even better for that sort of very high end learning experience that will come from an IV experience once they get there.

Bryan Benjamin (23:38):It's a really important point because what we've seen historically is someone graduates, they enter the workforce and then priorities are about success early in the job career trajectory, paying off student debt, all of those pieces. So the last thing someone wants is here's a 10 day executive education program that's going to cost you, however that may be very relevant, five, 10 years down the road. And so there's this gap that I think we can really dig in on, which is that I've just graduated. I'm early in my career and I think to your point, am it shorter? It is timely, it's plugged in it's cost effective ways, and so we need to be able to tick boxes across the continuum of someone's one and then it's, Hey, I wasn't forgotten in that early part of my career. And as I come back how I engage with Western or Ivy, maybe a little bit more extensive, maybe it's a full degree, maybe it's a more in depth type of program. And that's where the collaboration piece comes in to say, Hey, executive education might not have the right solution and might not actually be positioned to give the right solution, but continued might have something very relevant at that time and vice versa. And I still think there's going to be some cool programming you're going to see in the future, which actually combines the best of both of our worlds to provide new and different value.

Amrit Ahluwalia (25:10):I mean, it gets me really excited to start thinking about how sort of the collaboration or the cohesion of continuing education in business school intersects with an actual customer journey in the lens of point solutions and transitional solutions. And if we can kind of look at it through that lens and you have point solutions that gets someone to a large scale transitional solution followed by a series of point solutions that got some the next transitional solution. And as you look at that across the customer journey, when you're talking about someone maybe engaging 20 to 24 careers, I believe is the expectation at this point for your average, your average professional, there is a consistent need for both point and transitional solutions to that individual's career pathway. And we're set up to do both. So it's really interesting to start to think what is that customer journey and then how does a consistent series of intersections back into the institution support that continuum? I think as long as we have the right array of products, and I'll use the word products available to the right customers at the right time, they're going to find those flows into and out of the institution really aligning nicely with their expectations.

Shauna Cox (26:31):And I think that dovetails into the idea of where you came from and where you're going. So I just want to ask am I'll start with you here, of how do you envision your unit evolving to adapt to the changing landscape of lifelong learning while meeting the demands of a modern learner?

Amrit Ahluwalia (26:49):Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's twofold, right? We need to get out of the habit of thinking about continuing education programming as continuing education programming. We need to get into the habit of thinking about our programming as an amplification of the excellence of Western University. And that pivot requires more openness to collaborating with our partners across the faculty and in our research shops that requires a more consistent understanding of the outcomes associated with our offerings. And then importantly, it requires a very clear understanding of what the outcomes of adjacent or complimentary programs look like. So for example, if someone's taking say, project management programming within continuing studies, we have to understand that within probably two to three years of completing a project management credential that will likely be ready for a career transition that would necessitate an Ivy level education experience. So how do we make sure that we're actively marketing relevant Ivy programming to folks who have done our project management programming? And it's just a different mindset about what our role is within the context of the institution, coming back to the idea of learner relationship management as opposed to a provider of in-house developed offerings. So there's a transition that we need to execute here in terms of where we think we sit in the institutional mil and then how we fit into the array of programming and the excellence that exists at an institutional level.

Bryan Benjamin (28:28):I think a lot of very similar comments from my perspective in terms of what we're paying attention to with an exec ed lens. I think the industry, and I've talked about this and written about this, is ripe for disruption and it needs disruption, and we're part of a number of different global consortiums. So I'm always having conversations with other universities and I think there's an element of together we're stronger and the ability to say, here's the piece that we can uniquely carve out for ourselves. Here's the areas that we're going to be deepest in our expertise. Here's the geographies that we're going to play in. Here's the types of organizations and individuals that we're going to be partnering with. We're doing a lot on what I would call sort of program modernization. So what is being delivered? How is it being delivered? Making sure that maybe a five day program where somebody comes in and has an intensive experience, it still has a time and a place and there's a very unique outcome that can be achieved through that.

(29:36):For others, I want to do two hours online and then another two hours, and I'm not actually sure I want to do more than maybe a short program, but actually you know what? I've done that short program, now I'm thinking about what's the next program. And so being able to, whether it's stacked to something that ultimately comes to certification or a badge that I can put on LinkedIn where we're seeing a lot of people don't necessarily have the end in mind when they're starting something. They know they want something and they know they need something, but the next piece actually only becomes visible to them once they've completed the first step. And so our job is to create different paths for them to help consult. So we've got learning advisors that actually have deep conversations with individuals. Help me really understand you want to take a communications course.

(30:29):Why is that? What are you looking to achieve in terms of an outcome? So it's a much more consultative environment, which sort of draws on my background. Prior to ig, I spent a lot of my career in professional services, and again, it comes back to that being very client-centric. And the other priority we've talked about earlier, but I'll amplify here again, is expanding our reach. And so delivering programming in different parts of Canada and in different parts of the globe, I think it makes us stronger in the markets that we choose to play. When we've got that perspective and we've got amazing faculty that have worked around the world and have such deep expertise, I think it makes us more relevant for our different community members when we can kind of bring that to bear. So we've been very deliberate about we can't be in every market. We don't do anybody any service and we dilute ourselves, but where are the markets that we think Ivy is uniquely positioned to add value and bring that into our ecosystem?

Shauna Cox (31:35):Absolutely. Well, those are all the questions that we have for the two of you, but before I let you go, I'm going to need a restaurant recommendation. So you're both based in London, Ontario. I'm going to start with Brian here. Where do people need to go?

Bryan Benjamin (31:50):Oh my gosh, I'm going to actually pick a recent one. I was there just a couple of weeks ago. The Mule and it really great tacos and other tasty treats. It's like this perfect combination of casual yet great food, and there's a really cool sort of patio off to the back that's hidden and not obvious. We were there on just such a lovely summer day. So it's both the food and the atmosphere and the experience that I had. So that's my rco.

Shauna Cox (32:24):Amazing.

Amrit Ahluwalia (32:26):So London is in a really interesting culinary spot as so many international students come into this city, we've seen a really phenomenal transition of the kinds of restaurants that are available. And I think I have a high bar for good Punjabi food. That's my family background. There are great Punjabi restaurants, but I'm going to be super boring and say the exact same restaurant I said last time because it continues to be my favorite restaurant in London. It's called Pizzeria Madre. It is exceptional. They do an amazing job at keeping their menu consistently changing a lot of the dishes that they wind up serving, taste more like things that a chef would do as an experimental product, as something they would do maybe for a family meal as opposed to something that actually sell. Most recently on their menu I had a chickpea bravas, which was amazing. And also just a really weird thing to do. So it's as great as the array of restaurants in this city are, and I think there's a lot to be said for the great work that folks are doing to bring amazing food to London. I think Pizzeria Madre still sits at the top of my list.

Shauna Cox (33:36):Love it. Amazing Amri. Brian, thank you so much for your time. It was great chatting with you.

Amrit Ahluwalia (33:42):Thank you.