On today’s episode of the Illumination by Modern Campus podcast, host Amrit Ahluwalia was joined by Pamela Wimbush to discuss the alignment required across departments to successfully launch and scale microcredntials, and the need for a cohesive lifelong learning ecosystem
On today’s episode of the Illumination by Modern Campus podcast, host Amrit Ahluwalia was joined by Pamela Wimbush to discuss the alignment required across departments to successfully launch and scale microcredntials, and the need for a cohesive lifelong learning ecosystem
Voiceover: Welcome to Illumination by Modern Campus, the leading podcast focused on transformation and change in the higher education space. On today’s episode, we speak with Pamela Wimbush, who is the Dean of the College of Continuing Education at California State University Sacramento. Pamela and podcast host Amrit Ahluwalia discuss the alignment required across departments to successfully launch and scale microcredntials, and the need for a cohesive lifelong learning ecosystem
Amrit Ahluwalia(00:44):Pam Wimbush, welcome to the Illumination Podcast.
Pamela Wimbush (00:47):Hi, thank you. Thank you for having me.
Amrit Ahluwalia(00:49):Absolutely. My pleasure. I'm so excited to chat with you. And for the benefit of listeners, Pam and I have just been chatting for the last five, 10 minutes. We might agree on a little too much here, so we run the risk of going off the rails, but we're not going to, so we are together. We're in Washington dc we're at SIA CROs joint conference called Convergence. It's focused on Microcredentials Microcredential policy. Pam, have you found the conference so far?
Pamela Wimbush (01:14):Great. Amazing. Dr. Wilson from Morgan State, the president of Morgan State University, the sessions, the round table that I've been in, also the session that I moderated. It's been wonderful. It has exceeded my expectations.
Amrit Ahluwalia(01:29):Before we get into this, I'm curious about your thoughts, and you've been in the continuing ed space for quite some time. You currently serve as the dean for the College of Continuing Education at Sac State. How important is the alignment between the registrar's office and continuing ed when it comes to scaling, launching, developing, managing micro-credential initiatives?
Pamela Wimbush (01:49):It is super important. It is one of the areas just from being at this conference, and I knew that we needed to be a little bit more cohesive in what we're doing, but it is important and I can't wait to get back and like, oh, I have all of these thoughts and this.
(02:12): It’s how we can work together. The comprehensive learner transcript is something that is necessary, especially for your universities. I don't think this is something that we have thought about for quite some time. I've worked at a community college where I implemented badges probably over 15 years ago, and I am a product of those stackable credentials at the university that I started at. So I think it is just important for the traditional learners and also for adult learners as well.
Amrit Ahluwalia(02:51):Yeah. Well, do you know what it strikes me about as I listen to folks chatting at this conference and look at the, we're stepping slowly towards a cohesive lifelong learning ecosystem, and I think we've always thought about education through a few sort of traches thought about there's the work we do in the community, it's K to 12 or community programming and it's a little bit separate, and then there's the traditional student experience and that's really where we're going to focus. And then there's the stuff adults do and the fact of the matter is it can be the same individual over the course of 40, 50, 60, 70 years that's going to hit every single one of those stages. What I love about the shift towards micro-credentialing that the concept of the comprehensive learner record all these pieces is that it's really creating a cohesiveness in how we think about that, but the result is a very different institutional experience than what any of us really grew up with.
Pamela Wimbush (03:43):Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
Amrit Ahluwalia(03:47):I'm curious, as you think about now obviously we're sitting here at a conference about micro-credentialing. Why is micro-credentialing creating the buzz that it has across the higher ed space?
Pamela Wimbush (03:56):I think it's creating a buzz because the enrollments, we know that there is an enrollment shift cliff. The enrollment trends are changing for our four year institutions and also a lot of the states, they are changing their requirements for degree programs, for the requirements for staff to have degrees. This is a perfect opportunity for students to show that they are actually gaining skills, they're gaining education along the way,
(04:36):And it's something that employers can recognize. If a student stops out, for instance, they still have a takeaway that they can take with them. Whereas now if you stop out for whatever reasons, what do you have to show for that? And there is a stigma attached to it. Absolutely. And it removes that stigma. So yes, I was in school, I had to stop out for whether it was family related issues, whether it was health related issues, but I still persevered. And in doing that, this is what I have to show for it. And so I myself have benefited from having a certificate that led to a degree. So I obtained a certificate in this, I obtained a certificate in this area, and as I obtained those certificates, it actually led to a degree.
Amrit Ahluwalia(05:33):There you go. Well, I think it's such an important point and I want to double down on it. Education is not a binary. You're not educated and then suddenly you're educated. It is a process and the stackability creates visibility into that process. And to your point, only about 30% of students I think that drop out of or stop out of an academic degree program do so because of academic reasons. So what are we doing to serve that audience, to serve our learners and create an experience? This is where I think micro-credentialing is bigger than a conversation about credentialing.
(06:12):It's really a conversation about the student experience actually. And I'm now going to bring us back to the thing we were talking about when we walked into the room because it's about how the institution creates a welcoming environment, how the institution really presents itself to the learner, and then the feeling that that learner has once they engage. How important is it for, first, let's walk through, when you think about your role as a continuing ed leader and you think about the experience you're trying to create, how would you characterize the experience that the common CE unit tries to create for its students?
Pamela Wimbush (06:46):A welcoming, a belonging, a believing environment that you want them to believe in themselves. You want them to believe in the institution that they are researching, that we can meet you where you are.
Pamela Wimbush (07:02):There is no stigma attached to it, that you can and you can succeed. And we have the services and the support here in order for you to succeed that your family or your friends or your employer, that they believe that you are obtaining a quality education, whether it is a digital badge, whether it is a certificate program, whether it is a stackable program, that they believe in the quality that you are receiving. And I think that is so important.
Amrit Ahluwalia(07:39):Absolutely. And how do we start to bring that culture, that DNA, that mentality to the rest of the institution? When we think about micro-credentialing? I think that experience is a component of it.
Pamela Wimbush (07:52):Yes. Well, I tend to say, when asked a question about how do we do something, I say very gingerly because each area has its own culture.
(08:07):They have their own culture within their respective discipline, and it's an educating experience. There is a course that I teach for SIA, and it is the role of the educator. How do we educate others in the work that we do? And so in doing so, we have to be sure that as PCO leaders, that we are educating ourselves, that we understand we have a clear understanding of our why and who we are so that we can articulate that to the stakeholders that we work with.
Amrit Ahluwalia(08:45):Absolutely. So when you think about the work of creating this cohesive environment, especially when it comes to credentialing, what are some of the most common gaps that you've seen when it comes to aligning programming and credentialing university-wide, both within the registrar's office and within other academic units?
Pamela Wimbush (09:05):I think it is a disconnect. We are in silos. Higher ed, for whatever reason, we customarily is siloed. We're not talking to each other. There is a lack of context provided for that understanding to take place of why this is important. And once we can remove those barriers that we place upon ourselves and the units that we serve, and in working with our stakeholders, we can go much further than we can by becoming stagnant. And I think that is one of the biggest gaps is that lack of understanding of what it is. I'll tell you a short story. When I was first introducing digital badging to some faculty some odd years ago at another institution we were presented with, we are not the scouts. We are not the scouts. And I didn't expect that having been a Girl scout myself and my daughter was a girl scout and I believe in the scout system, but that's what, that was their first impression.
(10:27):So how do we remove that as though this is something that is really, it's something to help our students, help them be able to present the learning that they have acquired. Once we were able to do that, we were able to bring more people into the fold, and this was over 15 years ago.
Amrit Ahluwalia(10:52):Well, and I'd love for you to walk us through that process a little bit, maybe from that institution or through other processes that you've seen. I mean, there is a lasting and constant critique of non-degree programming and of alternative credential programming as it relates to the quality of that programming. There's really a disbelief in the rigor. There's a disbelief in the rigor of assessment, in the rigor of the curriculum design. How do you tackle those misconceptions? Especially when I mean, and I think for those of us in the continuing ed world, there's a perception that if the average student who's pursuing a non-degree credential or continuing ed credential wants to apply it to the workforce, so the rigor and the intensity that the need to show ROI is immediate. So I think in continuing ed spaces is a recognition of the immediate usability of a credential, but how do you translate that back to colleagues in more traditional academic side?
Pamela Wimbush (11:50):So I feel like we, within the PCO unit, it starts partly with our nomenclature that we are using. I was on a panel a couple of years ago where we talked about when you hear the word non-degree, when you hear non-traditional, there is an automatic stigma that others feel that it's less than. And so how can we collectively identify nomenclature that is going to be more on the positive than a negative to outsiders? And that's something that we haven't figured out what that nomenclature should be.
(12:42):Also, when we align our outcomes with the curriculum, with the quality curriculum and ensuring that there is an alignment and not misalignment to industry standards, I think then more will be more receptive. And when they can hear the success stories of students who have gone through having digital badges, not only students who have gone through it, but those who are already in the workforce, Hey, I obtained this badge and now my employer is recognizing me for that. I've actually received a promotion as a result of going through said program, and I have something to show for it. And so it's about educating. The more we educate, the more we share. Sometimes we are reluctant to share our success stories when this is a great opportunity to show the success in allowing our students to speak for us in this space as well.
Amrit Ahluwalia(13:54):Absolutely. So as a continuing ed leader, then, actually no, let's talk about this a little bit because I'm curious about what the first steps a CE leader should take in starting to build those connectivity points with the rest of the institution, especially when it comes to translating and reflecting learner success.
Pamela Wimbush (14:14):Yes. So it is about communicating and communication and what does that communication look like? I can give you an example. What we do within my PCO unit, we are talking to deans about micro-credentials, about digital badging, and they're becoming more receptive to it because there is an understanding we have to do things differently. The landscape is changing. As Dr. Wilson has talked about,
(14:42):The landscape is changing, sharing with my provost and our president, what we can do to expand in this area, and not only that, sharing our success stories and our newsletters, having our students actually speak to their own successes. That's what we are starting to do. And our PCO unit, not only that, but also engaging with our sister campuses. We have a campus CSU Dominguez Hills, they're actually here at the conference. They're doing amazing work in the digital badging space, learning from each other, and I think that is going to allow us to propel more in the space.
Amrit Ahluwalia(15:28):Absolutely. Creating something more than the sum of its parts within the institution itself, what's the role the C division needs to play in partnering with faculties to create micro-credentials? Is it owning the taxonomy? Is it owning the infrastructure, and how do you define that role?
Pamela Wimbush (15:46):I think it's that ownership. That is something that we provide for our faculty. We provide that level of support, so we want to make sure that we are not placing more on them. That takes away from them actually with their curriculum and also engaging with their students in the manner that they would like to, but we are sharing with them. We have these processes in place for you to help you actually to do this and to do for us, not for them, but for us to do it well. So looking at it in a more collective and cohesive process,
Amrit Ahluwalia(16:27):What to your mind, because you've been very active in the business and operations network within up CA, you're active as well within the marketing and enrollment management group, which by the way, we'll see you in Portland.
Pamela Wimbush (16:37):Yes. Thank you.
Amrit Ahluwalia(16:38):To your mind, what are some of the gaps between strategy and operations in the continuing ed space? I think so often that's where the rubber hits the road is in the details.
Pamela Wimbush (16:49):Yes, it is. I think for us it may be, or collectively it may be a lack of resources. Most of us, we are self-support entities, and so we have to be very cautious and careful when it comes to that and having the right individuals in place, because we have a great and amazing team. They do a lot. But recognizing that just one more initiative while we're doing these other initiatives and we want to do what we can so that there is no burnout and individuals can have work-life balance as well. So that's also top of mind as we are innovating, understanding that we can't do everything at once, but seeing what the need is and still kind of talking and chewing gum at the same time, knowing that we may not get there as fast, but are working towards that.
Amrit Ahluwalia(17:50):Absolutely. I'm curious because that's a very good point, and I think we are all very cognizant if not experiencing this.
Amrit Ahluwalia(17:59):Tendency towards burnout in our space. And there was, I think inside higher ed published a study not that long ago, something like 30 to 40% of administrative staff in higher ed institutions were considering a career change. This is a scary, scary thought. How do you prioritize when it comes to five initiatives on the table at once? And I'm throwing out a number here, what's the metric? What's the rubric that you use to determine where you're going to focus your time and energy?
Pamela Wimbush (18:31):So a lot of that is a collective thought process. Currently, I am meeting with my associate dean, our associate dean, and we're meeting with the deans to say, Hey, this has been, we thought this was a priority. We want to know what your priorities are because that will help us be able to prioritize when we're going through our strategic planning process. We don't want 15 things on our list. Currently we are working, we were working with five goals, but we kind of have six and we're pushing it a little bit, but these are goals that we know are important and that we need to move forward with.
And when it comes to prioritizing, we have to make sure that we give space for creativity because if we don't at any given time, we can receive a directive from above and you have to make space for that because if you don't, then you start to feel like you're going nowhere fast. It's a journey for us, and we want to ensure that the journey, that we complete the journey and that we are very intentional about the work that we do, and that's a word that I often use. What is the intent behind what we're doing and who is associated with this priority? Sometimes we set priorities for ourselves when we look back on it. You know what, we can kind of push this down a little bit because this is either a deadline or something that we set for ourselves, but for those where others, it impacts others, it impacts our learners, then those are the ones who move forward to the top.
Amrit Ahluwalia(20:35):Absolutely. Well, Pam, I mean that pretty much does it on my end, and I know you want to get back to you. Oh,
Pamela Wimbush (20:40):Great. I can go on. So I'm enjoying this. Thank you.
Amrit Ahluwalia(20:44):Well, let me ask you, this is the portion of the podcast where we pivot a little bit from being a higher ed podcast to a food podcast. So if someone's going out to dinner in Sacramento, where do you think they need to go?
Pamela Wimbush (20:54):The Tower Cafe.
Amrit Ahluwalia(20:55):Okay.
Pamela Wimbush (20:56):Yes. I went there for the first time about two weeks ago. I've heard of it, but I never did. I hadn't had a chance to experience it, and it's an actual experience that I didn't thoroughly. I actually went there for brunch, but they have dinner as well. The food is amazing. It is very eclectic. There is some history behind it. I'm told that we were the first tower records in Sacramento, and so it's no longer there, but the area where it was, they also have a very nostalgic movie theater that is attached to it, and I thoroughly enjoy it. And they have loads of parking, that's how I identify restaurants do that. What's the parking lot? So you will have no issues with parking.
Amrit Ahluwalia(21:57):That's awesome. Pam, it's been a pleasure. Hey, thank you so much.
Pamela Wimbush (21:59): Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.