Angie Kamath (New York University) on The Ripple Effect of Modern Learner Consumerism on Higher Education

On today’s episode of the Illumination by Modern Campus podcast, host Amrit Ahluwalia was joined by Angie Kamath to discuss how modern learner consumerism is affecting higher ed strategy and how to adapt in a competitive market. 

Transcript

Voiceover (00:05): Welcome to Illumination by Modern Campus, the leading podcast, focus on transformation and change in the higher education space. On today's episode, we speak with Angie Kamath, who is Dean of the School of Professional Studies at New York University. Angie and podcast host Amrit Ahluwalia discuss how modern learner consumerism is affecting HigherEd strategy and how to adapt in a competitive market. 

Amrit Ahluwalia (00:30): Angie, welcome to the Illumination podcast. It's great to have you here. 

Angie Kamath (00:33): Thank you. 

Amrit Ahluwalia (00:33): And we are, we're live at, at ssea Washington DC Uh, this is your first upia conference. You're also on the organizing committee. How have you found it so far? 

Angie Kamath (00:43): It's really great. I mean, the fact that we could pull together 80 sessions, um, incredible. It's really incredible in like two days with a thousand people 

Amrit Ahluwalia (00:50): Like it's, it's nuts. 

Angie Kamath (00:51): Yeah, no, it's, it's true. We actually have a team from NYU of about, I think there's five of us all together and, and hopefully we'll be able to kind of go to all the sessions that we want to and meet all the kind of vendors that we want to. But it's a really cool opportunity to, um, I mean there's literally like probably five or six vendors that I think we need. And so this is a little bit of like a, feels a little bit like speed dating, where you get to kind of meet folks, you get to sort of meet the reps, you get to kind of shop around and compare folks mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, which is great. Which is also just a lot better, I think, almost more objective than kind of getting the, the calls and kind of, um, doing meetings. Formal one-on-ones. Yeah. Yeah, 

Amrit Ahluwalia (01:27): Exactly. No, absolutely. Well, you know, I, I appreciate you taking the time out here and, and I think I, I'm just curious about your take cuz your, your background in the, in the post-secondary spaces is diverse as even compared to other continuing educators. What are some of the trends that, that you're watching? What are some of the things that you think are, are shaping the direction of our industry going? 

Angie Kamath (01:45): Sure. So, um, you know, I just had some really interesting conversations with other deans, and I think that's an important part of up psea where you just get to connect with your peers. And so, you know, I think that the, the trends in their area is that we have been, we meaning kind of schools of professional studies, extension schools have been the revenue generators, the cash cows, the place to go for the transactions. And truly that is over like <laugh>. That is not a reliable strategy. It's not, um, it's not very student centered. It's not very equity driven. Um, it's not actually, not even what industry is really demanding. And so the trends that I'm seeing very much are, um, like the rest of higher ed student behavior. Like students will walk, they will leave, they will find an alternative unless you're really providing a great quality, um, experience. 

Angie Kamath (02:31): And so those days of transactions of just being the cash cow offer something and you'll hit the number at scale and you'll price it low enough and kind of get it on volume, what you don't make on, um, kind of margin. Yep. I really think that those days are done. I think that people are smart and I think that they wanna be able to, you know, be taken care of. They wanna have networks, they wanna have a quality experience, they wanna, um, meet their professor. They want to, you know, build a community. And if a program doesn't offer that, they're not gonna stay. No. And I actually am really pleased about that. Percent people are, are, they have choice, right? They have agency, they have choice, they're walking and, um, they're no not walking with their feet. They're voting with their feet, voting with their feet. 

Angie Kamath (03:10): They're doing both <laugh>. Um, and I think that that's wonderful. Yeah. I think that student voice and participant voice always has to be at the center of education. And I actually feel like that's coming to our sector in a way that strangely, um, has been a little bit delayed. 

Amrit Ahluwalia (03:25): Well, you know what's interesting, right? Because there's, it's almost two parts of the same conversation. It's, it's almost a, it's a question of motivation. The, the idea of continuing education as a revenue generator and being superseded by the idea of a student as a consumer. Because when we think about mm-hmm. <affirmative> continuing it as a revenue generator, it's the operational outcome of being good, right? At serving the student as a consumer. If you take care of the first part, the second part's 

Angie Kamath (03:48): Gonna happen. Right. A dual customer model, like in theory, yeah, you can serve both, but I, I think a dual customer model is really hard. And I think almost always one, um, side of the coin, you know, one side of the equation gets more primacy. And I think that in workforce development in our area, um, we really respect and revere industry needs, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's really important. And I, I do think that we, um, whether it's kind of, we just got a little bit overweight in that area where we just kind of swung and we need to get ourselves into better equilibrium. Yeah. So as a very student-centered, um, you know, professional, I am thrilled that we are having these conversations now. 

Amrit Ahluwalia (04:24): So I'm curious, like, as you think about, and by the way, longtime listeners of this podcast will know that I tend, I tend to send questions over to prepare, uh, you know, beforehand and then tend to go off the rails almost immediately. Okay. 

Amrit Ahluwalia (04:36): Is, this is gonna be an example of that. But, you know, as you think about your, your own work and your own experience with that shift, that that foundational shift from being revenue oriented to being student oriented, how does that actually play out in practice? Like, what are some of the things that you're seeing and doing that execute on this shift in vision from being, you know, about revenue and about industry needs to being about students and, and being, you know, responsive to that consumer? 

Angie Kamath (05:01): So, you know, being a dean, you have to balance both. Yeah. And it's really about kind of what you're leading with Yeah. And what you're really making Sure. Um, kind of, you know, the, the field force that we have in terms of faculty, in terms of student, uh, you know, administrators and staff are focusing in on knowing that I've got my core team and we're, we're worrying and we're staying up every night worrying about the revenue. Yeah. Um, but the, the way that we balance that is really, it's around student retention. Yeah. And so that's kind of where rubber hits the road. And thankfully there's so much, it's so much evidence-based practice. Yes. There's so much technology, um, that can really help in terms of student retention, just building the community mm-hmm. <affirmative>, making sure we're answering questions, having that great customer service experience. Yeah. 

Angie Kamath (05:39): That's another trend that's coming to our area. Customer service matters. Yes. That user experience matters. Um, and it should <laugh> a hundred percent. And for whatever reason, I think that we've, you know, accepted, um, maybe kind of 1980s, 1990s level technology Yeah. In terms of user experience and now people are demanding something. Yep. Um, so I do think that kind of user experience feels really important to kind of really, um, have faculty and have staff really focus in on, um, and the, the, the outcome that we measure is, is retention or repeat customers mm-hmm. <affirmative> or, um, making sure that folks are really kind of taking advantage and completing courses. Yep. I'd say, you know, another way that this kind of, you know, shows up is on this innovation front and see tomorrow we're doing a session on how to do portfolio reviews. Cool. And how to know when to eliminate and sunset programs. 

Angie Kamath (06:27): Yeah. Um, without judgment, without feeling something failed. Yeah. And you can sunset a program that's doing okay mm-hmm. <affirmative> to make space for something that we think is really trending. Yeah. Um, and kind of making sure that we've just got that innovation infrastructure to really systematically and very objectively review programs and putting them into categories of, this is great. It could be sustained, this needs attention, maybe it needs to go away with more thought. Um, and this is something that is poised to grow and needs some more investment. So that whole portfolio mentality mm-hmm. <affirmative> of reviewing programs is I think another trend that we're seeing. Yeah. Cause I, I just think that many of us have operated off of either a, a virtual catalog or a physical catalog. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For a long time with that kind of very large menu of lots of choice and you tend to get volume, you know, signing up for everything. Yeah. And that just isn't how people are making decisions these 

Amrit Ahluwalia (07:20): Days. Not at all. Well, and it's, it's interesting too, cuz that's, it all kind of comes back to this core idea of, you know, what's the business of our division and Absolutely. And how, how do you operate as an empathetic business. Right. And that's, it's, that's a cool line to draw. Like that's an interesting space to be in of, of it's a 

Angie Kamath (07:36): Little controversial. Yeah. I mean, some faculty that have been doing the same thing for a long time, they'll sort of say, well, I've, I've been running this for 10 years and it, it was really popular. And if it's not popular now, it's clearly marketing small <laugh>. If I had a dime for every time I heard that I'd be a rich woman. But, um, it's just, you know, again, being empathetic to sort of say Yeah. You know, there are things that peak and then they mature and they just plateau. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that's not at all a reflection on a fabulous faculty member No. Or a reflection on a really important industry or sector or program. Um, it's, it's not, but kind of being able to kind of manage that is something that's important to students at the end of the day to be able to offer fresh new programs. Yeah. Um, one of the new programs that I'm, that, you know, I'm not the only one thinking about this, but employers have to start figuring out how to use Jet Chat G P T. Yes. I mean, a lot of, um, AI and machine learning are, are absolutely, um, gonna do basic level research and basic level tests. And that's exciting. Yeah. That actually creates a lot of space for people to do more interesting work and more, um, collaborative and team-oriented 

Amrit Ahluwalia (08:39): Work. Now you're getting to the human specific stuff instead.

Angie Kamath (08:41):Yeah. And so we should be offering classes on that. And so right now we're, we're trying to figure out what would that look like mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, um, what's the continuing ed course and is that to middle managers? Is that to entry level staff? It's probably to both. Yep. Um, and again, it's interesting cause at the higher ed level we're a little nervous about it. Yeah. And you know, it's, is it cheating or is it a tool? That's an interesting and slightly complicated question for universities to answer, but from the workforce perspective, employers should love this. Yeah. I mean, it literally is good thing. Yeah. Is entry level research automated within seconds? Yep. 

Amrit Ahluwalia (09:16): Well, and that's, so let's, let's keep on that trend of, I guess the idea of sort of threats or concerns. I mean, what are some threats that as sort of higher ed leaders are planning for the next five or 10 years should, should really be aware of 

Angie Kamath (09:30): Great questions. So, you know, I think my mind goes to the, the financing of it. Yeah. Um, and just how to, costs are going up, inflation's going up a lot of, um, you know, across the country we've seen a lot of union renegotiation or unionization of whether it's grad students or faculty or adjunct faculty or contract faculty. Um, and on on, that's really important, right? Being, being able to pay fair wages, being able to be generous with, um, instructional staff is important. That does create pressure. Yeah. On the bottom line, that does create pressure in terms of pricing for students. Um, and when there are so many organizations, again, whether it's ed tech firms that have been quite frankly pushing and nipping at the heels of higher ed and really Yeah. Um, you know, asking kind of what's the value of higher ed? Yeah. Do you really need it for a job? And there's a big movement obviously, obviously with employers wondering about the value of, of higher ed. I think that feels like the biggest threat. Interesting. I don't lose a ton of sleep over that. Yeah. Because I'm a firm believer that college and education is transformative. Yes. And while the skills that one learns, you know, could be boot camped mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if that's a verb. Um, I like that the experience of, um, you know, working in those team projects, gaining those leadership skills, gaining the teamwork skills. 

Amrit Ahluwalia (10:52): There's durable skills there too. 

Angie Kamath (10:54): Gaining those durable skills. There's just no substitution for kind of time in seat to do that. Interesting. Um, but I do think that there are some pressures, um, and it's gonna be interesting. And again, I think that we learn a lot from EdTech firms. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we partner with a lot of EdTech firms. I'm not scared of them, but, um, it is interesting just looking at kind of, um, what employers are looking for, what students are looking for, what price points are, what um, promises are being made to students and what's real and what's kind of a really good marketing spin. 

Amrit Ahluwalia (11:25): Yep. That's fair. You know, it's, it's interesting you framed that out cause it's, one of the nice things about where the boot camps have come into the space to my mind is really in creating more, more student choice is that how do we become responsiveness to the student as a consumer? And I think the challenge there is that we also haven't really done much to educate our, our consumer. So yeah. As from, as a post-secondary industry, our assumption has been, well, you basically have one choice in a of providers within that choice. Right. And now it's more, you have 10 choices and multiple series of providers within those frames of choice. Right. And so as, as a post-secondary industry, I think we have more to do in framing out our value proposition a little bit. So it's so prospective learners really understand like, what's the investment for, what's the mix of durable skills and technical skills Right. And how does that contribute to their success and all those things. I feel like we could take it more seriously. Right. But we've never had an impetus to do so. And 

Angie Kamath (12:23): So I get, I get very, I've, I think I've always been bullish and I get con continue to get very excited about re-skilling. Yes. So looking at existing workers and helping them just continually get to the next level with small dose trainings that can help them on their job may or may not lead to a better job, may or may not lead to a salary increase, but it's gonna make them more effective. It's gonna keep them kind of being a curious, inquisitive, lifelong learner. That's a great place for higher ed in my opinion. Um, you know, some of the entry level skills to kind of take someone who is out of industry and give them the tech skills to get into a job and get hired that may or may not be a great place for higher ed. Um, cuz I do think if you're gonna make a promise to a student to get them a job, that then turns higher ed into kind of job placement and workforce. 

Angie Kamath (13:09): Um, got it. Development organizations mm-hmm. <affirmative> and having worked in workforce development organizations and having worked in higher ed, um, you need a really, really great employer relations team. And that's not a career services office that's not throwing up jobs on handshake. Yeah. That's like a really strong, and I love handshake and we love Handshake, but that's a very different value proposition of working with employers. And so I wonder about that. I do think that apprenticeships are really interesting. Yeah. And I think that, you know, but what we hear from employers is they want people, they don't wanna shoulder much of the cost <laugh>. Right. And so, you know, trying to figure out and navigate that is important. I don't actually think that that's a great place necessarily for the private sector for kind of boot camps mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but I do think that there's a responsibility for education to, to think about co-ops. Yeah. I I think co-ops are not threatening to higher ed. I think, you know, higher ed loves them. There's a big long, many decades long tradition of that. Um, and I think we could be doing more of that. Yep. Yeah. And so that gets me excited. So I think that there's places for us to play. Um, there's some overlap. There's, you know, I, I appreciate the pushing. I, I, I sort of appreciate the hustle that a lot of ed tech firms give to higher ed Yeah. To sort of say, don't rest 

Amrit Ahluwalia (14:22): In your, they're forcing a different culture. 

Angie Kamath (14:24): Just, yeah. Don't rest in your laurels. Don't be complacent. Yeah. That's actually really helpful. 

Amrit Ahluwalia (14:29): That's great. So, and you know, it's, it's behold the seamless transition back to the questions, uh, because, you know, this starts to frame out a very different purpose for the role of professional continuing on, on ed. You know, this is, historically these units have lived on the periphery of the institution. They've innovated in the shadows, they've whatever, you know, cliche you'd like to use. But the fact of the matter is that they haven't really been part the, the core institution. But as we see students behaving as consumers, as we see those consumer expectations evolving, as all these things start to change around us, the role of those PCO units is becoming more and more and more important. So how do you see the role continuing to evolve and, and what, what does it take for leaders to make sure that, that that transformation happens with PCO at the center instead of off to the side? 

Angie Kamath (15:13): Sure. So I'll take you a little bit down a, a rabbit hole here. Hopefully not too much. Um, <laugh>, so our school's been around for 90 years. Next year will be our 90th anniversary. And so I went to the NYU archives recently just to learn a little bit more about those early years mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because again, in 1934 we were doing television production, which actually in 1934 That's huge. Yeah. Was cutting edge. Like we didn't have televisions in people's living rooms, but we knew sort of at our school that television production was gonna be revolutionary. And so we taught that cutting edge technology. I found that fascinating. And so, yeah. You know, in the kind of going through the archives, um, you know, in the, in the forties and the fifties, the then dean of the school of professional studies at NYU wrote off these missives to the chancellor saying to academic credit purists, we need to defend the value of teaching adult learner. 

Angie Kamath (16:02): And that for those, and, and it's like literally this quote for those who think something deplorable is gonna happen to institutions who teach students after 6:00 PM who happen to be employed, who might have a degree Yeah, yeah. But want another skill. We need to let people know that some, like the earth is not gonna Yeah. The, the floor is not gonna kind of fall out from under us. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that was in the 1950s. And the then dean and so to answer your question, what has to happen? There has to be really strong leadership to say we are responsive from an equity perspective to many different types of people. So that kind of access to opportunity, access to economic mobility, access to career advancement is a Right. And we're very much at the center of offering that mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then we have to have leadership that sort of says, and we're unafraid and unabashed and unapologetic about making money <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. And doing things for a margin. Um, do we have to make money hand over fist? Do we have to break even? Do we have to have kind of particular margins? I think that's for a different kind of universities in different context, figure 

Amrit Ahluwalia (17:00): Out the line when Yeah. 

Angie Kamath (17:01): Yeah. And I, I think the third piece is, so if we do it around equity, if we're always kind of making sure that we're understanding why we're upskilling people mm-hmm. <affirmative> and kind of what that means and how affordable that should be. And then the last piece that is, um, I believe, you know, really important is making sure that we are really helping people advance in their careers. Yeah. And that we're really helping folks understand that the future of higher ed <laugh> is one that's responsive to people where they are now. So it's the kind of truism in social work meet people where they are. Mm-hmm. I think higher ed has to, and I think that that, um, professional schools are extremely well poised to meet people where they're at traditional higher ed is meeting an 18 year old where they're at. Yep. Right. Graduate schools are meeting mid professionals where they're at. 

Angie Kamath (17:46): I think schools of professional studies. We can meet the needs of high schoolers, we can meet the needs of undergrads, masters, mid professional executive ed. One of the newest areas that we're being responsive to at our school is around the whole next chapter. So looking at folks who are at our near retirement age who don't want to or cannot retire mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and we know all from all the science that it's really important to stay engaged. It's really important to stay mentally active. It's really important to have community. It's really important to be part of a network. And so we're looking at kind of what we need and should do for that demographic. And I'm really excited about that. And that to me is a really good example of the role of schools of professional studies, um, that you're constantly kind of meeting people where they're at with a set of skills, tools, offerings that are interesting and responsive, um, that often can lead to a job in, in co-design mode with industry, but also that are just meeting equity goals that are meeting upskilling goals that are meeting, you know, unre retirement goals for people. 

Angie Kamath (18:45): Yeah. And I think that it likely means a different value proposition for universities that used to look at this as the transactional cash cow. Right. Just don't think that that is what the market will bear. I don't think that's what people will pay, and I actually don't think that's the right role. 

Amrit Ahluwalia (19:01): Interesting. That's interesting. So as you think about higher education in 10, 15, 20 years, what are some of the traits or characteristics that you think are really gonna start to define our industry? 

Angie Kamath (19:12): That is a great question. So traits that are gonna define our industry. So, gosh, I think the idea of of having a balanced portfolio, um, of some work that is directly aligned to industry, some work that's directly aligned to kind of new entrance to the workforce. Um, we have ridiculous inequality gaps in America and it's just untenable. And, um, there was an interesting article this past weekend in the New York Times on Poverty is totally solvable in the United States of America. And that's about jobs Yeah. At the end of the day. And so I do think that this portfolio will have co-created industry programs, um, entry level programs that can really start to hack away at economic mobility and, and access. I think we'll have programs that are very much around upskilling, because I do think that machine learning and AI are gonna be changing industries at a much more rapid pace. Yep. So the upskilling and reskilling is important. I don't, maybe that used to happen more. I feel like we've lost our way in our field around that. I just don't 

Amrit Ahluwalia (20:17):Think that it's not a priority. 

Angie Kamath (20:18): It doesn't seem 

Amrit Ahluwalia (20:19): Like a priority. Yeah. 

Angie Kamath (20:20): So 15 years, I think that we'll really have that as part of our portfolio. And I would say I should probably stop at the rule of three, but I'll say kind of just to throw in a a bonus piece, I, I do think that kind of being in service to universities and our university, the universities in which we operate mm-hmm. <affirmative> is a really important piece of, of what we do. So what do I mean by that? I think great programs can offer a degree and, you know, for the cost of higher ed, we should be offering some certifications to graduates too. Yeah. <laugh>. Yeah. We shouldn't let grads, you know, graduate from any discipline. It could be stem, it could be liberal arts, and then struggle in the labor market because they didn't have, you name it, STEM skills, tech skills, project management skills, sales skills, writing skills, podcasting skills. 

Angie Kamath (21:03): Yeah. Um, those are kind of service offerings credentialing that I actually think that we should be offering to graduates. And so I think that there's a service function that could be, um, much more strongly offered and kind of, um, delivered for students. And, and quite frankly, I, I hope that students and parents and families and communities demand it. Yeah. Because for the cost of the education that they're, um, paying for, they should have the durable skills, they should have the analytical skills, they should have those, um, kind of human interaction skills and they should have some like technical skills. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that shouldn't be an add-on. It should be part of the package. 

Amrit Ahluwalia (21:39):Y eah. That's, I mean, yeah. Absolutely. Well, Angie, I mean that pretty much does it from, from here. So I guess before I let you go, I'm, I'm curious and bearing in mind the size of the city, if someone's going to dinner in New York, where do they need to go? 

Angie Kamath (21:53): That is a great question. So, and you know, you gave this one to me before <laugh>, and it's still really hard as a food loving New Yorker to come up with one answer. But I'm gonna go with, um, my go-to, that's seventh Street from our work, Alta Pizza. It's, um, on, uh, east 12th Street, um, fantastic. Uh, Coalfire Pizza. Um, largely served by an almost all immigrant Italian, um, staff. And it is just wonderful. It's spacious, it's good, it's affordable, and it's like the best of New York. So Reta Pizza on East 12th. 

Amrit Ahluwalia (22:27): There you go. Oh, really? Edgy. It's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for your time. 

Angie Kamath (22:30):Thanks, Amrit 

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