Gary Hepburn (Toronto Metropolitan University) on The Emergence of a Modern Learner and Learning Continuum

On today’s episode of the Illumination by Modern Campus podcast, host Amrit Ahluwalia was joined by Gary Hepburn to discuss the emergence of the modern learner that will define higher education and the partnerships required to ensure a future-ready workforce. 

Transcript

Voiceover (00:05): Welcome to Illumination by Modern Campus, the leading podcast focus on transformation and change in the higher education space. On today's episode, we speak with Gary Hepburn, who is Dean of the G Raymond Chang School of Continuing Education at Toronto Metropolitan University. Gary and podcast host Amrit Ahluwalia discuss the immersions of the modern learner that will define higher education and the partnerships required to ensure a future-ready workforce.

Amrit Ahluwalia (00:32):Gary, welcome to the Illumination podcast. Although I guess right now, I'm, I'm your guest and you're the host. We're live, live onsite at the Chang School of Toronto Metropolitan University. Yes. Well, welcome wonderful to be at the podcast and wonderful to have you here at Toronto Metropolitan University. Absolutely. Well, it's a fun return, I guess home to a certain extent for me is many listeners know I've, I've moved to London, Ontario and, you know, after 10, 10 or so years in Toronto and we're, we're both in town actually for <laugh> mm-hmm. <Affirmative> the Canadian Association for University Continuing Ed Deans and directors meeting. Gary, you have a long history with CAUCE. Can you talk a little bit about the organization and, and the roles you've played within it? Well, it represents all of the CCE units in the country.

Gary Hepburn (01:18): Most every university is represented in CAUCE So I was the president at one time and, and had many executive positions with it. But it's also just a wonderful group of people. Like we, we, we do like getting together and enjoy it. And you're part of that too. Amri. Yeah. And know what I mean? Yeah, it's a fun, it's a fun, it's a fun crew. Yeah. Well, yeah, we, we occasionally have some fun <laugh> so as it as it goes and you know, it's kind of neat. We're having a meeting here the first live meeting since 2020, which if we all think back to late February and 2020 some, some stuff happened. Yeah. We were wondering if this, if this, if this pandemic thing is really serious. Yeah. At that time, this was one of the first conferences that actually got canceled.

(02:03): Wasn't it? Was the 2020 Deans in director? No, we had it. We had it, it was one of the, one of the last ones to happen. That's right. We did this session with Canadian Kennedy Universities. Right. Yeah. Right. So it's, it's kind of neat that now we're getting back after three years and it's the first time we've returned. And you know what, the, the weather is a little bit bad here. Is, it always is in Toronto, <laugh> and K begins every year. Most every year that I can remember. They're from weather problems coming. Well, and I'll tell you, I mean, listeners in Southern Ontario will have enjoyed about, we're, we're recording at the end of February. For the last two months we've had basically grass. It's been lovely. It's been absolutely gorgeous. It's been above freezing. And then as soon as the Dean's in director's meeting comes along, we've got an ice storm.

Amrit Ahluwalia (02:48): Like, like clockwork <laugh>. Well, you know, one of the things that before, and we, you know, it's actually, it's interesting you brought up the pandemic cuz part of the, the discussion we're having today is gonna look at sort of how continuing Ed has, has evolved in the wake of the pandemic now that we're kind of in the, what we might consider a post pandemic how, how universities are adopting. But I do, I wanna talk about Case very briefly cuz it is, as you know, it's an association that's close to my heart. When you think about the, the transforming higher ed landscape in Canada and obviously the, the, the larger and larger role of, of university continuing education and, and defining this sort of new space. Where do associations like KU play a role in, in helping to communicate the value of these departments that have generally been o overlooked and, and certainly historically have, have kind of lived on the outside of the university?

Gary Hepburn (03:38): Well, and I, and I think, you know, it is interesting because, you know, as, as hard as the pandemic was in most respects, it's really, I think, brought CE units to a moment. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and institutions really have the opportunity to innovate and their CE units are, are nimble. They can move in various directions that are needed at this point. I think it's a really interesting time for higher education in general, and it's going to be interesting to see how various universities deploy their, their CE units to, to achieve some goals. And I think we'll probably get to some themes <laugh> today around that. But there, you know, it's a time, it feels like a time of opportunity to me where, you know, I think we were, we're really framed by our historical roles at universities, and now everything has shifted mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and it's hard to say what it will look like in five or 10 years from now, but it, but it's in the making. And I think, you know, the meeting we're going to will be interesting to see how these themes come up. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, and many of the questions that, that you've kind of sent me in advance nicely <laugh> I think are, you know, everything is shaped by that. I th I don't think the pandemic influence can be escaped. No. as we, as we consider these factors, and it's not just the CE units, it's the very institutions that we're part of that, that are facing some significant challenges in the future.

Amrit Ahluwalia (05:05): Well, and let's, you know, so let's dive into it a little bit. Right. When you think about sort of the, the needs, the expectations of modern learners, obviously the last few years have thrown into pretty sharp relief challenges, priorities, expectations of, of this learner group. What are some of the things that you've observed over the past few years about the ways that that student expectations evolved?

Gary Hepburn (05:26): Well, you know, I, I, I think it's been intriguing in the, in the last few years, there was, these themes were alive before the pandemic. So you heard about post traditional learners,

Amrit Ahluwalia (05:35): Nothing. This is nothing new. It was an acceleration. 

Gary Hepburn (05:38): Exactly. Yeah. And, and there were, there were kind of ideas about how institutions might shift a lot talk about, but then everybody had to shift very quickly mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and there, you know, there, there was no discussion. It just had to happen. It was done very rapidly on an emergency basis mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and in it interrupted education, something that has, you know, really never happened in recent history, but it, but you know, we also sometimes forget it interrupted learners. Yes. They had a certain idea pre pandemic about how, you know, their educational lives were going to go mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and to some extent their lives in general. And that all changed for a while. And they got a very different look at higher education through that time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I don't think we've even begun to see what the outcomes of the pandemic will be. I think it'll be something in 20 years we'll be able to look back on it Yeah. And identify this time and talk about what happened. Yep. But I, it, it, it's always difficult to see it when you're in the midst of it. That's, which is exactly where

Amrit Ahluwalia (06:42): We're right now, the event that launched a thousand dissertations. 

Gary Hepburn (06:45): That's right. 

Amrit Ahluwalia (06:47): I am curious and, and we're joined here our producer evolution managing editor, Shauna Cox is with, is with us in the room here. And one of the things, right at sort of February, March, 2020, we pivoted the entire publication. Obviously, and, and anyone who's worked with Shauna knows we have a, a very rigid and and expansive editorial calendar at the evolution. But as sort of some of the realities were sinking in about what this was going to mean we, we pivoted the publication to start talking to folks about how their institutions were adapting to the changes what higher education was gonna look like in the wake of the pandemic. And, and both Shauna and I were, were working with, I, I believe actually you, you contributed to that, that series. Gary. So, and, and one of the things that struck me about it was that we were talking about remote education, certainly, but other than that, we were talking about student centricity.

(07:41): We were talking about being flexible to learner needs. We were talking about trying to deliver education in, in formats that made sense to learners, given their context and their point in time. And obviously we're talking about an emergency situation, but the foundations of that sound like just good practice. Yes. <laugh>. Yeah. so when you, when you think about sort of the, this question of, of learner expectations and, and the shifting behavior of learners, I mean, do you, you know, do you think we'll ever go back to a point as an industry where we stop putting the student first? Like, do you think we revert to a stage kind of where we were before, where the learners fortunate to engage with the institution? 

Gary Hepburn (08:21): Well in, you know, and there, and there's an interesting question in itself and, and, and to give, to give a direct answer and then maybe ex explain what I mean a little bit. No, I don't think we can ever go back mm-hmm. <Affirmative> at this point in time. So, you know, the, the, I think the, the era of the traditional learner, the way we thought about it, students who finish high school, they're happy if they get accepted into university, they follow the program as set out and try to complete their university studies. I think it's gone. Yeah. It, it's, it's fragmenting into many ways. And we've always had differences that we've talked about a great deal mm-hmm. <Affirmative> in the past between undergraduate students and adult learners, for example. But, you know, I think we've really come to the point where the learner is a consumer now.

(09:09): Yeah. They've had different looks at education about how it can be, they know it doesn't have to happen like it traditionally has because most of them have experience with it happening differently. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and, and they're going to behave like consumers. So you always heard adult, one difference with adult education, or sorry, adult learners, is that they behave more like consumers. Yeah. They make, they make choices differently in the market. I think you're going to begin to see traditional learners or the, the undergraduate age group beginning to make different choices in the market. They're going to want different things. They may want online delivery mm-hmm. <Affirmative> they may want hybrid delivery. They may, they may take some years off. Some of them may opt for something different than the route they probably would've taken had the pandemic not happened. So I think the, the doors are wide open now. Yeah. On, on what we can do. And from my perspective, it's an exciting time, you know, in teaching and learning and, and we have discussions in the university, and often the term pedagogy is used. Yeah. And pedagogy is really referring to education of children. Yes.

(10:19): And it, it, it makes some assumptions that the children aren't really going to be making their own choices. That we set out the path for them and they follow that path. I think things are different now. So andragogy is, is education of adults, and we always assume, well, well, they're more self-directed and they wanna make choices. They wanna bring their prior experiences in. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they want something to say about how their education is delivered to them. I think those distinctions are blurring now, and we begin to get this higher education age group that is going to behave more like consumers, and they're going to want to make choices. So I think we have the emergence of a different student mm-hmm. <Affirmative> both traditional undergraduate aged students, but they won't be traditional in the way they behave. Yeah. And adult learners are going to be a little bit different as well. So that whole category is becoming more of a continuum.

Amrit Ahluwalia (11:12): That's interesting. Right. I, I mean, I really, I think there's something to be said for the, you know, the residential experience and, and I think there's something to be said for, for making sure that learners who want access to that still have it. But I, I think we've also, we've spent so long essentializing higher education as that very particular look at what it, at, at what an education experience could be that we never really stopped to think expansively about what could, what could come next. And it, it's kind of fascinating as you think about, you know, the opportunity to earn micro-credentials and more granular credentials on your way to a degree, as a way to almost replace that single pathway to, you know, a binary yes or no completed degree. Or didn't complete degree. One thing I'm curious about, you've, you mentioned the, the reality of learning continuum, right? The reality of, of an individual saying, you know, I wanna bring prior learning into, into my learning environment. I want my learning to be relevant to, to employment outcomes. So the question then pivots a little bit to, you know, your corporate partners and what corporate corporate learning partners expect from, from their educational partners, from the post-secondary institutions. So, as you know, in, in the interactions that you've had with employers and, and industry professionals around, like, what are some of the changes you're seeing in, in their expectations of the post-secondary institution? Well,

Gary Hepburn (12:32): Well, you know, interesting. A similar theme to our, you know, previous topic Yeah. Skills gaps were around before the pandemic. Yes. But there was a lot of discussion of skills gaps and how, how those could be responded to by higher education. And there were some, you know, good attempts made to do it. But, you know, by and large, higher education didn't have a heavy response to this. But I think, you know, now not only are there skill gaps that exist, but now there, there's, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, an an employee's market. There are shortages of skilled employee employees. So not only skills gaps, but they can't, they, they can't even find people who, you know, may not have the qualifications. I think it's difficult for employers right now. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> so much of what they've been saying is really ramped up. You know, these days as we, as we begin to try to find a response, and, you know, you mentioned microcredentials and we'll probably talk about it a bit more.

(13:35): Yep. But that's been, we've been keenly interested in Microcredentials at the Chang School mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and, and you know, have a particular approach that we're taking to it. But, you know, and but to, to stick with employers for the moment now as we begin to do it, the, the, the, the ball is in the employers court in a lot of ways. So they've been, many employers have been very reliant on traditional credentials. Despite the rhetoric of, of the skill gaps. They've still required degrees to get jobs. So what happens now as we begin to look at alternative formats is the pressure is on employers as well to begin to consider students who have alternative credentials, which may involve microcredentials, for example, and consider hiring them. And we hear more about employers who are beginning to eliminate degree requirements for jobs and look at alternative credentials and qualifications and experience as they hire.

(14:35): And by and large, from what I read, these experiments that they're doing have been quite successful. They've, they've been really happy with what, what they've come up with. But employers are now going to have to begin to engage with universities and universities. They're going to have to engage with employers and, you know, to get to where we think we want to go or where, where we say we want to go. It's a partnership. It's all going to be done in partnership. One can't happen successfully without the other. We, we can, we can do a lot of microcredentials, but if those students don't get jobs, we won't keep doing micro-credentials. Employers really have an opportunity to hire, but if they don't, they won't get the, the, the focus programming that addresses the skill gaps. So we've all got to be ready to walk down a different path together.

(15:31): I believe, and we'll learn a lot as we do it, that, you know, there, there's, we begin walking down a path, but, you know, as they say, laying down a path and walking <laugh>. So we, we, we sort out the path as, as time goes on and, you know, we've got a lot to learn mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, there's it's interesting when you start to think about competency outcomes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And even for undergraduates, a colleague of mine, Linda Coley, who will also be attending ku, she's the, our assistant dean programs. She talked about the likelihood that there's going to be the side sidecar effect with undergraduate students, but they will do their degrees. Oh, interesting. But as a sidecar, yeah. Even if, even if the undergraduate programs aren't recognizing them as parts of the undergraduate programs, students will begin to accumulate microcredentials Yeah. Indicate competency in particular areas of need. So they may kind of look at both as being important. And again, to get back to these non-traditional learners, we started talking about mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, they're really going to define a lot of this, you know, with how they begin to see it. But messages from employers are going to be incredibly important.

Amrit Ahluwalia (16:42): It's interesting you bring up that, the sidecar concept. And by the way, I'd be remiss if I didn't say I, cuz I know she's listening to this episode that Le Lena Patt, your colleague Le Patterson

Gary Hepburn (16:56): Who's led our micro credential work. I you Yes. She, her,

Amrit Ahluwalia (17:00): Her name has to come up here and, you know absolutely. She, she and her team at the Ontario Council for University Lifelong Learning were, were kind enough to have, have me join their session a few months ago as well. And, you know, the, the, she, the work she's doing is exceptional. And, you know, it's, it's really interesting watching Rock Toronto Metropolitan. Yes. <laugh> lead a lot of these conversations around micro-credentialing in Ontario. Coursera had a finding recently that 74% of students said that they would be more likely to enroll in a degree program if micro-credentials were available. And, and the sidecar model, that concept is something that really fascinates me because we are starting to take a real close look at the competitive differentiators for any given college or university. Right. It starts to really throw a of a wrench into what we thought the traditional differentiators were. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So as you look at the, the sort of the strategy of the Chang School, the positioning of the Chang School within Toronto, Metropolitan's infrastructure, as the sidecar model becomes more important as employer relationships become more important mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, how do you see that the, the, the role of the Chang School, the strategy of the Chang School evolving to ensure the university as a whole can keep pace with these changing expectations?

Gary Hepburn (18:14): Well, and, you know, to draw our themes together. So now we've got students who are behaving more like consumers mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So the very choices you just spoke about, students will vote with their feet, they'll go to institutions that pr really provide what they think they need to be successful going forward. And we know career considerations are, are, you know, some of the most important things to our learners. And we have adult learners who, you know, when we look at our adult learners, most all of them are motivated to take our programs because they want to advance in careers, whether it's a new job or advancement in an existing job. But the, the, you know, the intriguing thing, I believe, you know, at at T M U that we're working out, but I think other universities are working on this, well, I know they are working on this as well, is to really begin to differentiate with it.

(19:09): But, you know, really micro-credentials can be looked at to take that example as something relatively simple. They're short pieces of programming with very focused outcomes. Well, what we're really trying to do is begin to listen deeply to employers and identify particular skill gaps that come up often. You know, it's not even clear. Employers have difficulty articulating the skills gap and what that would look like if it were solved. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, and I think it's together. We actually have really interesting conversations, and Lena has been very involved in developing this for us. And what we wanted were credentials that were responsive to this, that really dependent on positive evidence that students had in fact inquired acquired important competencies. When they do finish up it, universities sometimes have difficulty adapting to those because they tend to look at learning outcomes of courses very broadly, but rarely talk specifically about competencies.

(20:16): In the end, we assume, you know, students do develop competencies and, you know, and we assume so when they take courses, but it's a little unclear what they are, exactly what they are. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and employers have been telling us this for some time. Yeah. So what we're really trying to do at this point is to develop a much deeper relationship and with employers and understand their needs. And we're actively investing and putting resources into this. We're also beginning to think deeply about the credentialing in universities to the point that we really began our micro-credential journey at Senate. So we have micro-credentials that are officially T M U credentials. They're going to be all delivered to students digitally, and they will receive digital credentials when they finish. But it's all based on a demonstrated competency. Interestingly enough, the Senate policy doesn't even talk about how students learn those competencies or develop those competencies. Interesting. So it's wide open. So,

Amrit Ahluwalia (21:22): And then the space opens up to really start to define mastery.

Gary Hepburn (21:25): Right, right. And, and how people learn. Right. So to get back to that pedagogy and pedagogy mm-hmm. <Affirmative> idea that I talked about earlier, we're not defining the path for our learners.

Amrit Ahluwalia (21:37): Right. Because then that's more or less a seat time conversation at that

Gary Hepburn (21:40): And, and we don't, yeah. So, you know, one interesting conversation with our registrar when we began to implement this policy is we were asked, well, how many hours mm-hmm. <Affirmative> contact hours earlier we said notifying contact hours. In fact, if you felt you had a competency, you could come in and do the assessment and be granted the credential. However, we, we, we do know that most people are going to need help Yeah. Acquiring the competency. But how we do that is wide open. And here's where techno interesting technologies become possible. So adaptive learning. Yes. Yeah. And we, we can begin to, to look at various ways that we might help students collect data adjust how we do it, adapt ourselves to provide different opportunities for different learners. Let them pick, pick individual routes, meaning we're not going to put them in a classroom and try to take them through one course. It'll be the same course for everybody. And then measure outcomes. They'll know what the outcome is. They know, they will know how they're going to be assessed on that outcome. And then it's up to them to prepare for it. But we're of course going to help them do it, but we're going to learn a lot about how to help them. It's not the sort of question that universities have thought deeply about.

Amrit Ahluwalia (23:00): No. Cause there, I mean, there hasn't been the impetus. It's interesting, you, you bring up the registrar relationship and that's, you know, our, our publication has started to, to really focus in on, on the alignment between the registrar's office continuing education and establishing this mirror or this window of, of what innovation looks like in the post-secondary space. How important has the relationship with the registrar's office been in helping the, the Chang schools start to build this new vision for what learning at at T M U can look like?

Gary Hepburn (23:32): It, it's been important you know, issues around how to issue digital credentials on behalf of the university involves the register's office. But much of it is our school of continuing education here. The Chang School is the keeper of records for this. And that's, again, defined in the senate policy. So we do work parallel to the registrar, with the registrar and many of these issues. But they're primarily focused on undergraduate education. And, you know, we've had to sort out a lot of things about Right. How to issue credentials, how to keep records you know, and then, and then even how to talk about micro-credentials because it is a different form of education. You know, many, most institutions have probably developed micro-credentials, what they call micro-credentials. And as you know, there's a wide variety of definitions. Yep. And, you know, and I, and I do just want to refer to my notes because I did write down the name of an article from the evolution that I read this morning, and it was an article based on an interview with Nick Williams and Mary Elizabeth Smith.

(24:44): Yes. Yep. And they really, they really looked at this as a, as a systematic approach. Meaning this isn't something you do quickly, you have to think about it, start slowly learn about it. That's where the Chang School is now. We've been actually without offering a lot of microcredentials, we've been working on them now for a year and a half. And Lena has been leading that work for us. But it has taken us that long to put all of the pieces in place and decide how we're going to define microcredentials, how they're going to be structured and offered. And in our case, we have a strong relationship between micro-credentials and micro certificates. So, to give an example, a micro certificate might be digital accessibility, but then there are a number of component competencies of showing expertise in digital accessibility. And those are microcredentials. So creating accessible word documents, creating accessible p d F documents. Right. audits of systems that, that, that, you know, take into account issues of accessibility. So when you get the cluster completed, then you are awarded the, the micro certificate. In fact, we're very much more focused on the micro certificate as the important unit that will interest students than we are the micro-credentials themselves. So these are kind of

(26:12): So we don't think people necessarily want certification that they can create accessible word documents. Right. However, we think they're very interested in showing that they have expertise in digital accessibility.

Amrit Ahluwalia (26:26): Right. That makes sense. So it's less about, I mean, it's it's still granular. Yes. But it's granular and an outcomes oriented way. Yeah. Because now it's, it's thinking through, well, what's the use case of that skillset? It, it's to deliver, you know, X outcome and then that outcome's going to be valued by employers in certain ways. Absolutely. Got it. That's really interesting. And, and those, I I'm assuming those outcomes are developed in partnership with employers to understand their skills gaps, what they're looking to develop internally?

Gary Hepburn (26:55): Yeah. So we're, we're developing a process. We've been piloting it in various ways, but we're now about to really try to bulk up in terms of producing a lot of micro certificates and micro-credentials. And just as you said, we'll be working with subject matter experts to help design assessments. So it's sort of a backwards approach, design approach. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we do the assessments first, and then we work on how we can prepare people to do those assessments of micro-credentials. And then of course, they're clusters that lead to the micro certificates. It's been a learning process for us. It sounds simple, but it's know.

(27:36): But then, but then to have the systematic capacity to not just do a one-off Right. And adapt something that we've already done and say, well, now it's a microcredential because we've made it shorter. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or, or dev or broken it into parts. This is really looking at how we develop, you know, a, a strong capacity to, to produce a lot of micro credentials for students to take mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and how to deliver them to students, what kind of experience we need to provide to them to get them ready to do the assessments. So it, it's we've been working very hard on it in the background, and we're just beginning to roll them out now and do a lot of testing, but it's very data driven. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> our approach to it. So at each step we try to collect a lot of data and adjust their approach based on what we learn.

(28:26): And they're coming out now that's fantastic. But they're approved by our school council on behalf of the Senate. And and then they become official T M U credentials that students can take. You know, we're, we're going to be really interested to see who takes 'em. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we're also interested in questions. Like we, we offer certificates fairly traditional CE certificates. We're really interested in what the relationship is between micro-credentials or micro certificates and our traditional certificates, because micro-credentials are great. They have the potential to address skill gaps, but they're not everything. They don't do everything. So we, we think there's room for both forms, and we're trying to sort out how best to put them together at this point. It'll largely be data driven, like we'll mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, try out different things, see how it works, and and, and adjust. That's based on,

Amrit Ahluwalia (29:29): Well, I'll tell you, I mean, it's, it's a complex model that you guys are building. And I think as, as many leaders start to look at how they can define this, you know, near term future for their own institutions, I mean, what are some low hanging fruit that you'd suggest other folks start to look at to, to really start to adapt to this more sort of student-centric, employer oriented post-secondary space.

Gary Hepburn (29:53): So, I don't know, you know, the, the, the low hanging fruit question

Amrit Ahluwalia (29:56): Is, there's also, there's also, there's

Gary Hepburn (29:58): Also a caution, I don't know that we feel that we found a lot of low hanging fruit mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but it, it's, and, and you know, back to the article that I mentioned, it's really a deep engagement in thinking about how to develop capacities that we, that we, you know, we weren't unfamiliar with, you know, kind of understanding what employers need, for example, but to deeply engage and really get down to what exactly is the skill gap and how can we address that in a way that will also give employers a lot of confidence in what we're doing. We thought it would be easier than it has been. And the, the, I, I think there were certain strategic directions you can point yourself in, but in terms of quick solutions, we haven't, we haven't found many of those. And many of the things that, you know, were considered microcredentials in the past mm-hmm.

(30:58): A lot of those don't fit our definition anymore. They, they, they don't conform. So you, so low-hanging would be the same. Let's just redefine a lot of yourself as microcredentials. Right. The, the, this is a different form of education, so there's, it's hard to communicate about it mm-hmm. <Affirmative> to the public and to employers. It's something new to develop. It's an interesting observation. It's been more difficult to explain it within a university than it is to people outside the university. Employers understand it much more quickly than, than our colleagues in the university.

Amrit Ahluwalia (31:37): That's fascinating. If there's anything that speaks to the culture shift that's taking place, it's probably that more than anything else. Right. That's incredible.

Gary Hepburn (31:45): Well, you, you know, you, you do see a lot of, of microcredentials being developed, which are essentially variations of what University Saal was done. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, maybe shorter programming, more, more chunked for lack of a better word. And it, and it really didn't involve a lot of change from the, the approaches that have been around, you know, forever in universities. We're finding this is quite different.

(32:16): And it, it really interrupts the, the model in a lot of ways. Now, a CE unit is a perfect place to do this. I can imagine that it'll be very difficult within a faculty in the way they've operated and what their responsibilities and what their role always has been. But it is an opportunity for CE units to come into their own. But, you know, I, I say, you know, back to the low hanging fruit idea, it's not for the faint of her fair. It's a, it's something that does require a deep engagement. We just can't quickly produce microcredentials using the same methods that we have in the past. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, this is something new to us. And we're really excited about it. Like we're, we're, we think this is going to be, you know, offer something quite different in the education market than what currently exists.

(33:08): You know, there's some others that, that are doing really good work in this area too, but we also realize we, we have a lot to learn. So, but those relationships with employers listening to students and beginning to adapt to their needs, you know, to get back to your very first question, right. About how are learn learners changing, well, they are changing, but the thing we have to do is not treat them like children. We have to listen to them and and see what works, what doesn't work, and, and, you know, begin to develop a product that's meaningful.

Amrit Ahluwalia (33:42): Absolutely. Well, Gary, I'll tell you what I mean, I know we're a little over time. There's still questions on the table. But, you know, maybe we could, we could schedule time for, for maybe a follow up and, and maybe come back in and do a second interview, cuz that, you know, I, I'm also very familiar with some of the things you and your team were doing to, to engage learners, to keep them engaged to keep them excited about the programming that you're offering. And, and perhaps that that's a follow up conversation in and of itself. So we'll leave, we'll leave it here today. Now, one thing I will ask you in closing, and the way that we close our interviews is, is talking about restaurants. Now you've known me for long enough to know where my head tends to go, <laugh>. So if you're, you know, whether it's in Toronto or, or whether whether it's out out in Nova Scotia, what's a, a restaurant that comes to mind that, that everybody needs to try if they have the opportunity?

Gary Hepburn (34:31): Oh, boy, that's a tough question. That's the hardest question you've asked me, <laugh>. So there, there are very many, you know, and, and I've as we talked about earlier, I'm relatively new to Toronto, but it all shut down after Yes. I started. So I didn't, I didn't really get to do all the restaurant thing that I would've liked. But they're good, are good Many around here that are well known and they're very nice restaurants. In Nova Scotia, there are a few, in fact, my favorite one that, that is in Cape Breton in Insh closed down. Oh, no, did it retired. So I can't really recommend it as a place to go. <Laugh>. you know, I I, I called him last summer and he said no, I actually, he, he's been threatening to retire for years. No kidding. But yeah, it's so I, I won't, I won't, I won't work on that one, but I'm just trying to, I'm trying to come up with one.

(35:24): I think I'm going to pass on the question until next time, <laugh>, because I, you know, otherwise I'm just going to come up with an answer. But, you know, in Toronto there's, there's, you know, choice. Yeah. And you know, what I really love about Toronto to put in a general plug is just the sheer variety. Yeah. you know, you, you can, you can go to a different restaurant every week and they'll all be great. Yeah. so, you know, I I I know I'm, I I know I'm kind of avoiding the question <laugh>, but but I'll tell you, but I'll give it some thought. You have to warn me about this

Amrit Ahluwalia (35:57): I'll tell you what, no knock on London. But that has been one of the hardest things about leaving, leaving the city has been trying to find a place to get dinner.

Gary Hepburn (36:06): Yeah. Well, I, I do notice that, you know, around the time I came to the city, you laughed. 

Amrit Ahluwalia (36:12): Here, Northern Gary, it's been an absolute pleasure, my friend. Thank you so much for your time.

Gary Hepburn (36:17): Well, anytime am at, at all a pleasure to talk to you.

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